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The slowly dying sandbox

Discussion in 'Starbound Discussion' started by LilyV3, Jul 28, 2016.

  1. pop-yotheweird

    pop-yotheweird Ketchup Robot

    it's not a quick fix lol. it took them nearly 3 years - 3 years! - to finish their newer dungeons and mission maps, which are essentially dungeons in themselves plus a final boss.
    they have to draw out the concept for the new houses, then make a mock-up. then make them in-game, code them, code their spawning patterns, fix any bugs, hope that doesn't cause more bugs, fix those, and finally implement them in-game. that takes a rather long time, especially when people want new content that expands on the story they have in place.

    they removed content, we get it lol.
     
    Inf_Wolf14 likes this.
  2. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Spaceman Spiff

    In numbers though, the amount of dungeons currently in-game actually surpasses pre-Giraffe amounts.

    CF switched to .Json-based mapping in the Giraffe era, so it's quite easy to see just how much they've added dungeon-wise. :)
     
    pop-yotheweird likes this.
  3. pop-yotheweird

    pop-yotheweird Ketchup Robot

    well, right. they have those presets available, then they populate the preset with various things randomly. like, different rare discoveries for quest progression (which I always ste-I mean requisition huehuehue).
    but if they wanted to make new buildings, a new "dungeon", wouldn't they have to start from the ground up (mostly) for the project? a new layout, new enemies, stuff like that?
     
  4. lazarus78

    lazarus78 The Waste of Time

    Yes... yes it is an excuse. the specs of a computer are not the only deciding factor of if it will perform well. How a person has their computer set up can also impact it. IE having a bunch of things trying to run on startup will make it take longer to actually start up. Proper computer maintinance is a big deal that the vast majority of people are ignorant about.

    I work in IT. I see this regularly. People's computers are bogged down because they stupidly install bloatwear among other things, and have unnecessary background processes eating up system resources. The vast majority of the time, the performance issues are user error, not the software itself.

    Obviously Chucklefish should strive to resolve as many problems as realistically possible, but there is a limit to what they can do. If they can't reproduce issues on their end, they have little hope of resolving a problem. Simple as that.

    99% sure you wouldnt be able to tell the difference between a forest on the west coast vs a forest on the east coast (Assuming same flora types). There is a thing called biomes, and virtually regardless of where you are in the world, if you are in a particular biome, it will look basically the same as any other. Starbound uses the trope of all one biome planets, so naturally they all look very similar.

    Terraria may be able to make more expansive dungeons, but they are basically the same all trhoughout. They may differ in physical shape, but their contents are exactly the same. Starbound has hand crafted segments that are stitched together, which is arguably a better system, but fleshing out all the different dungeon types to have enough variation as to not look TOO repetitive is a LOT of work.
     
    AmazonValkyrie likes this.
  5. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Spaceman Spiff

    I design my own dungeons, all it takes to add new houses is creating the map, dungeon, and adding the rules to master dungeon anchor.
    But the problem is quite literally balancing. Dungeon-dungeon anchors have to be precise. World gen prerequisites need logical reworks sometimes. And then determining what house spawns with what house, but not next to that house, but also has to not exceed the part limit....

    It gets tedious and actually complex.

    New dungeons need the map, dungeon, patches to what biome/terrestrial type it may spawn in, weighted spawn probabilities, etc.
    And then, add all the issues of adding a house above to each dungeon piece you add...
    (And this doesn't even account for all the other fancy things you can do with instance dungeons...)


    People seriously underestimate the work it takes to do some of these things.
     
  6. LilyV3

    LilyV3 Parsec Taste Tester

    how is 50x the same building on a planet actually arguable better?

    what work, take an avian village they repeat houses and are on the same plane, all you need is one anchor at the end of each house.

    But what makes SB inferior to terraria is, that the assets reused in SB are havign the 100% same blocks at the same location and even the breakable objects are at the same location, so you have visually the same structure like 30+ tiems ont he same planet. The only different thing si the loot within the containers. Terraria does not do that the same assets do slightly differ by small randomised things. different breakable containers, different chest and furniture placement and randomisation of these. They never look completely identical so it never looks repetitive.
     
  7. lazarus78

    lazarus78 The Waste of Time

    How are dungeons with no actual variance arguably better?

    Terraria is one single world vs Starbounds many different ones. It demonstratively has more variances than Terraria.
     
  8. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Spaceman Spiff

    You do not know how dungeon generation works.


    ONE dungeon part is the anchor. This single part will now contain one or multiple anchor points which connect to various other parts (with matching connectors) defined in the master file by complete RNG.
    Including your anchor part, there is a maximum number of parts defined as well.
    On top of that, you can set rules for what specific part may or may not connect to each other, the max number of any part that may be spawned, individually set the weighted probability for each part, or force generation of a part.

    Now consider all the logical errors that can occur with various connectors of DIFFERENT COLORS as well. (Because you can only connect parts with matching color.)
    Including having to reweight specific rulings because of broken generation rules that are NOT errors; So you have to comb through the code logically until you find why it doesn't work.

    Now does it sound complex? But wait, you can also set MULTIPLE ANCHOR PARTS.
    Now take that design, repeat, and redesign for a new anchor part.


    (I will repeat, people UNDERESTIMATE the time and precision it takes to do this! For me to make one village with only two unique anchors took a week... AND IT WAS STILL BUGGED FOR WEEKS AFTER RELEASE.)
     
    pop-yotheweird likes this.
  9. pop-yotheweird

    pop-yotheweird Ketchup Robot

    it's like recording music or drawing a picture! so many little things to keep track of, to look out for. one mess up and that's a potential rewrite or torn paper.
     
    Inf_Wolf14 likes this.
  10. LilyV3

    LilyV3 Parsec Taste Tester

    we spoke about repetitive patterns not only dungeons,

    and yet you won't find the exact same asset used in terrarias one world multiple times, while in terraria one world (planet) utilise multiple same assets like more than 10x
    have you ever beedn to a floran minibiome where the same 3 wooden structures repeat like 30times? that is one ofthe worst ways to utilize an asset when it comes to how far can one overuse the same structure.
     
  11. pop-yotheweird

    pop-yotheweird Ketchup Robot

    I have found the same assets used for different things in Terraria. of course, this was back in, like, 1.1 or shortly before 1.2 or something.
    y'know, From Software reuses assets all the time lol. and the only one of their games, to my knowledge, that was ever received as a weak entry was Dark Souls II.
     
  12. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Spaceman Spiff

    Looking at the dungeons right now, "aviannativevillage" has:
    • 2 village end variants (left/right)
    • 12 house variants
    • 2 temple ground variants
    • 1 tower entrance part
    • 4 tower floor variants
    • 3 tower top variants
    That's 24 dungeon parts. (Which I may add, were created after the supposed "dungeon removal" some the ago.)
    Now each instance will NOT generate every part. So you will ALWAYS visit a village with parts leftover in the pool. And these parts generate and connect in random order, so no village layout is the same.

    Next, we have the "avianvillage" (a dungeon existing pre-Giraffe):
    • 6 village end variants (3 left, 3 right)
    • 1 village center part
    • 2 tiny, stair parts
    • 8 village house variants
    • 1 temple variants
    • 6 miscellaneous parts (including lamp posts, and general space filler)
    Now that's also 24 parts. (Despite more than half of them being tiny, detail pieces). And this village is nearly identical in logical spawn to the first, with one exception you'll read below.

    Considering not all pieces generate on one go, not all dungeons generate in the same layout, and obvious terrain limitations can very well limit villages to small hut settlements...
    I'd say this is a pretty damn good system for generation.



    Now for an interesting piece of info.

    The dungeon created after Giraffe has a part limit of 20, and individual part limits set to anywhere from 1-3 each.
    The dungeon, pre-Giraffe, has a part limit of 200. And several, individual pieces with NO limit on generation.

    Statistically speaking, dungeons of the past had VASTLY more chances for repetition than those now.
    Because I don't know how dungeons with set limits AGAINST repetition can possibly be more so than dungeons without said limits.



    TL;DR:
    The dungeons and content of past versions everyone has praised is actually, most likely, the cause of the greatest amount of this "repetition".
    (Good thing CF isn't making dungeons like that anymore, amiright?)
     
    pop-yotheweird likes this.
  13. lazarus78

    lazarus78 The Waste of Time

    The assets are exactly the same. You can do everything there is in the game on one single world. They achieve it by just overlapping new sections as you progress.

    Your scope is too small. Yeah, individual dungeon types seem repetitive, but remember there are many different dungeon types that developer time had to be spread between. If you look at the whole, there is far more there than terraria.

    Your ignorance on this subject matter despite your level of bickering about it is astounding.
     
  14. foreck

    foreck Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    Just want to support LilyV3 saying that to my subjetive point of view, the layout and various routes a Dungeon in terraria can generate (plus the different colors, dynamic hazards like the spike ball and flamming ring and good use of space) are well balanced and very funny to navigate, there's enough variation at a big scale for it to not feel repetitive although they could use some more love... I think starbound's dungeons are too recognizable, and it makes you think dungeons are repetitive because you know how to dodge everything it throws at you and to fix this you will need a lot of dungeons and dungeons parts to be more mixed. In retrospective it's a matter of tastes, one is more linear than the other and the other have less hand picked segments and is more random.

    In the end I don´t thing starbound's system is better than Terraria, nor Terraria's better than Starbound

    Again, all of this from a gameplaywise point of view, I do not know enough of coding or optimization to argue about that, but ignorance should not be a reason for not speaking
    (not english native)
     
    Inf_Wolf14 likes this.
  15. Xylia

    Xylia Tiy's Beard

    Comparing Terraria to Starbound is like comparing an Apple to an Orange.

    They are both fruit, but they taste far, far different.

    Terraria is a very battle-heavy game, from the ground-up, it was designed to be so. It has a much more robust variety of weapons and weapon styles to choose from (especially near the end of the game), it has a lot more functional armor sets, and a whole slew of buff potions that you can tweak your playstyle.

    Starbound, on the other hand, has the whole thing where you visit lots of different planets and it has a much greater block variety. There are far more blocktypes in Starbound than there are in Terraria. While a lot of these are crafted, there's still quite a few that you run into on a world and there's more variety.

    Both are good games, with their own focus on different things. Starbound focuses on being a heavily moddable game while Terraria needs a third party API hook to even mod it in the first place (which breaks every time Terraria is updated then you gotta wait not only for tModLoader to update, but also the mods themselves). Starbound focuses on the exploration and building aspect, and gives us actual story and missions.

    Terraria has almost zero story whatsoever, and certainly no complex missions. The most complex thing Terraria has is its Dungeon which while fun, isn't very complex. A dart trap here, some spikes there, and randomly spawning invincible enemies that serve as random traps are all you're going to find in the Dungeon. No puzzle doors, no hidden secrets, just a series of winding brick passages lined with spikes and the occasional dart trap.

    And again, I am not bashing Terraria here. But let's face it, Terraria has a different focus. Starbound will never get anywhere near close to the fun that Terraria's combat gives you. However, Terraria cannot, and will not give you the quests and storyline missions that Starbound has, nor is it anywhere near as fun to build in Terraria as it is in Starbound.

    Since you have a much wider selection of blocks to use, and the ability to paint blocks at range (and also a MUCH better backwall system than Terraria...), building is far better in SB than Terraria.
     
    Firebird Zoom likes this.
  16. Firebird Zoom

    Firebird Zoom Master Astronaut

    Well, Terraria: Otherworld is supposed to be more of an RPG than Terraria was, but I'm not really sure when we'll get to actually see it, as Re:Logic wants to release it as a finished product.
     
  17. lazarus78

    lazarus78 The Waste of Time

    Their argument was that terraria was more variant than starbound. If you really look at it, outside of physical shape, terraria dungeons are very generic all around.

    Starbound dungeons are basic, yes. They could do with more section variants, but I was arguing that overall, starbound as more. On the ndividual themes they could use more.
     
    Firebird Zoom likes this.
  18. LilyV3

    LilyV3 Parsec Taste Tester

    wow yes thats all what you need if you make it complicated, you can simply set some parameters like every house is within a 40block wide
    Ma ybe that no village layout will eb the same, but show me a avian village which does at leats not reuse the exact same house twice.
    What do you eman with the "dungeon part limit" Which dungeons does that affect? I am sure than 200 different peices randomsied with no repetitive limits causes more variety than 20 with limit. I have an old koala version on my disc as well, I cna make soem runs in both versiosn and we cna soo how much different they feel. But I am not sure atm what dungeons you speak about, those like the avian tomb? or the towers?

    What I also speak about are mostly minibiomes and underground structures which do repeat over and over again. What i speak about for example is this house
    [​IMG]

    I found this minibiome sometimes spanning 80% of a planeth length. and you then meet this very structure and the other 2 different ons like more than 20x just winin a few minutes. The issue is there is no randomised furniture palecemt in this building, not even the breakable objects are different. every vey block is exactly the same. Only the NPC is different.

    They play different, yet both are sandbox games and have procedural generated worlds, this is the part you can actually compare quite well in hwo they are done. And this is the part where starbound disappoints, it has so much more blocks in the sandbox yet is so much more repetitive in using them on structures.

    it does, yet these assets are filled with visual randomness and never look block by block identical and you will not come acorss 10x the same asset looking block by block the same within 20minutes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  19. lazarus78

    lazarus78 The Waste of Time

    So you are basically complaining that they didnt make 100+ different sections for every dungeon. Which is silly because each one takes time to make in full,and they had to make enough for each possible theme. So given that, they did a fairly good job. I do hope they expand on them more over time though, but what we got was a decent count.


    Except you are trying to compare them on a very finite spectrum. A single terraria world has almost everything the game has to offer. A single starbound world only has a small portion. If you condensed everything Starbound has into one world, it would be nothing short of a clusterfuck because there is just too much.


    Again, complaining that they didnt make 100+ variants per themed set. Your ignorance on the subject-matter is showing. Even if they made 1000+ variants, you would still see repetition. The more variants you try to add, the work load increases greatly. Chucklefish had to get a decent number of variants to satisfy the basics. And again, Terraria has most all of its content in a single world, so it will obviously look and feel more dense with content even if it has less than Starbound overall.
     
  20. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Spaceman Spiff

    You have, once again, missed the entire point and logic behind what I am saying.

    That is still not how dungeon generation works. But I am finished trying to explain it.
    Only the "avianvillage" and "aviannativevillage", as I said in my post.

    I'm not even getting into the other dungeons, some of which, having nearly a hundred parts each.
    :facepalm: Basic logic vastly suggests otherwise.

    You have parts with no limit on how many times they may repeat; And you have parts that cannot spawn after a certain number of times.
    One can spawn repeats up to maybe one hundred times, the other, up to 3 times.

    I fail to see how you find variety in a scenario that clearly invites repetition as a part of a worse system which has since been made better by CF.
     

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