How ''magic'' would fit

Discussion in 'Mechanics' started by DevilForce, Jun 15, 2012.


Is this a good idea?

  1. Yes! i like it!

  2. No, i dont like it.

  3. I dont care.

  1. That is correct. I apologise for intruding in your conversation but I come bearing data. :p

    "Many strange and wonderful outfits will be available, ranging from a Knights armor to a space suit." from the List of Announced Game Information topic:

    It is also worth noting that, according to Tiy (same source as before), '(...)a lot of this info has come from pre-release chatter. This means that each feature could be inaccurate, subject to change, modified, dropped entirely, altered beyond recognition, or anything else.'
  2. DeadlyLuvdisc

    DeadlyLuvdisc Oxygen Tank

    How does a sword cut people? "Well, it can't be a scientific explanation revolving around the fact that it has a sharp edge, so it must be magic!"

    You can boil it down to this:
    Science = Knowledge
    Magic = Ignorance
    If you follow science, then you know that even seemingly inexplicable phenomena must be explainable somehow.
    If you follow magic, then gravity doesn't exist-- The gods of the aether are pushing you down with their divine power!
    They are like goggles that change the way you see the world around you. They are different ways of thinking.

    The thing is, IRL everything CAN be explained. There are things we haven't explained yet, like why ice is slippery for example, but we do not assume it is magic because that is absolutely bonkers. Sci-Fi stands for Science Fiction, not Magic Fiction. There can always be mystery-- maybe creatures and weapons that have abilities we don't understand. Even so, it can not be magic! Like I implied in my previous post, there are two main problems with having magic in Starbound. First, we use item based progression that does not allow the actual player to have innate powers. Second, magic goes against the central theme of Starbound.

    Magic would not make the game more colorful. You could have the spells from Terraria plugged into Starbound, but Starbound would still treat them differently. For example, the Ice Rod could look and function the exact same way. The only difference would be that the tooltip would say it is "an ancient artifact that somehow excites the molecules nearby into forming a block of ice." You could have all the same items and abilities, they would just be science instead of magic!
    Keeper and Bombzero like this.
  3. All_I_Do_Is_Dig

    All_I_Do_Is_Dig Lucky Number 13

    Yeah...I honestly hope a futuristic sci fi game sticks with ya know...futuristic sci fi stuff, not medieval, if you want medieval just play Terraria instead <.<.
  4. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    No, the examples you said are pretty obvious that they are not magic. I was talking about stuff like for ex a full moon concentrates its light reflection to one certain place at one certain time and like a symbol appears on the ground, ya know stuff like that Mysterious~ You couldn't explain how a virorb can fly. If you can then why doesn't dragons exist? I mean they could have light bones? they're remains could've been really delicious to some ground bugs and that's why there aren't any remains left? Also, the way you all talk about "figuring it out" is also very unlikely, I mean the player can't possibly be THAT intelligent and it should be in end game when you are smart enuff to know how it works, until that how would you call "that"? Its not science because you know crap about it, magic? no? maybe? maybe not magic directly, but in a mystery way and i talk about the stuff i wrote and not why ice is slippery. Also, when i mentioned magic i meant magical artifacts that let's you do stuff. And the stuff about gravity and gods pulling you is completely bonkers, i mean that's too much.
    I don't really get why so many dislikes, stuff i say now is completely irrelevant with what am i originally suggesting, stuff i say now isn't a suggestion, im just simply talking, don't dislike if you don't like me and me talking about magic. The main suggestion is scientifically proven that the artifacts are not magic (the fireball gauntlet)
  5. The Corrupted [ITA]

    The Corrupted [ITA] Big Damn Hero

    1)Virorbs can fly because they are ligher than air, or air in starbound is denser than our own, allowing Virorbs to fly.
    2)Actualy, a dragon-similar reptyle DOES exist, iven if his "wings" are nothing more than tho small bones and some skin pushing out of his back. And it's like 10 Cm long.
    3) Magic = Ignorance about something = Religion = UR A WIZURRD HURRY
    4)Less intelligent being unable to understand something can:
    a) Agument his brain with biological means (Genetic modifications)
    b) Agument his brain with mechanical means (Connecting to a supercomputer)
    c) Create a "thinking" program, which could create a more "intelligent" thinking machine which.... ETC

    5) if this is science don't call it magic. if you keep talking about magic arguing with us, don't expect positive votes.
  6. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    1. you are just guessing aren't you.
    2. can it breathe fire? no
    3. wut?
    4. a,b,c yeah fk schools, you go to the science lab, they plug a wire into your head and the other side to the computer, copy paste all the files there and you live the rest of your life like in a paradise? cool
    5. stuff i say now is magic, stuff i suggested isn't. And most importantly I DO NOT ARGUE with you. We are having a calm, polite talk and there is no anger in me while i type this message.
  7. Active Link

    Active Link Master Astronaut

    First, I just want to say that by giving points and then backing them up with reasoning means that you are, in fact, arguing. It's just not a violent argument. ;)

    Also, I don't see the point of this argument, the devs have already confirmed no magic in Starbound. And if you really want a reason for why you can't have magic in a sci-fi game, think of it as a matter of principles, or even rules. There's also a name for putting magic into something sci-fi: lazy writing.

    Science fiction is entirely based on the idea of proposing technology that is to some extent believable. This means that for something to be science fiction, you have to be able to give some kind of explanation (even if it's total bs) for why it works; and that explanation has to sound believable. For something to be classified as magic, it has to involve phenomena that can not be explained completely, and there is generally an ignored lack of reason for why something is possible. By putting magic into sci-fi you would no longer be able to use the term sci-fi to classify the game (or other media) and the entire premise of the game is changed. Also, by adding magic to a sci-fi game, critics (and the like) will instantly home in on that and identify it as lazy writing on the part of the devs. Hope this helped.

    Edit: I just want to say that I do like your idea of weapons that function similarly to magic spells, because the use of a weapon/ technology to fire and control the spell-like projectile can deliver a satisfactory explanation of why it's possible.
    Bombzero and The Corrupted [ITA] like this.
  8. The Corrupted [ITA]

    The Corrupted [ITA] Big Damn Hero

    1) yes, but the first step of every progress are ideas and imagination. And this would be the MOST logic answe.
    2) If you light a fire behind a cow and wait for it to fart you have a backward dragon! :D
    3) It's a reference to Harry Potter, when Hagrid says "You are a wizard, harry!"
    4) Actually, it's techically possible and many scientists are mapping human brain to be able to bind it to computers. I mean, we have robotic arms that work just like a normal arm, so why not?
    5)You are arguing about the fact that you think we aren't having an argument, which actually means that we, in fact, are. PARADOXES!

    BTW i'm totally calm and, in fact, i'm enjoying our discussion. :geek:
  9. Wyvern

    Wyvern Hard-To-Destroy Reptile

    Pretty much this. I don't get why there's a disagreement in this thread in the first place.

    I saw OP describe some kind of tools that just "use magic with no mana"? How about tools that just have effects that are seemingly like "magic"? Everyone wins, everyone's (almost everyone's) happy.

    Maybe I'm crazy but that seems like the obvious solution to me.
    DeadlyLuvdisc likes this.
  10. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    Again, when i said magic, i didn't mean it like creating a fireball out of no-where and launching it, or harry potter style, i meant it like... well... like oh god i have nothing... you all brain raped me so i cant think of anything.
    Still if people like the idea of weapons that fire a spell like projectile, they shouldn't dislike this because here i am talking about the actual magic. I know that they have confirmed that there won't be any magic in the game but i am not suggesting that. The conversation we are having has no point actually, its just... speculation?
  11. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    that is the suggestion you know actually :p
  12. Wyvern

    Wyvern Hard-To-Destroy Reptile

    Did we read the same first post?
  13. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    sorry? the what?
  14. DeadlyLuvdisc

    DeadlyLuvdisc Oxygen Tank

    I think I already said this in very simple terms, but I'll try one more time.

    It doesn't matter what the actual thing is. Dragons. Instant runes. Magic wands with unicorn feathers inside.
    It is technology. A wizard practices science. He studies the cause-effect relationships between various things in the universe.
    He then creates theories and tools based on the knowledge that he has collected to form spells.
    In stories that feature "magic" they have different natural laws, like ley lines and such. These are no different than our laws, like gravity.
    Wizards use science to discover how to use those laws to their advantage.

    Even if a wizard isn't using tools, like staves or wands or other spell components, it is still science.
    When I try to jump over a table, I already have an idea of how high and far I can jump because of science.
    Science is simply paying attention to things that happen, then changing your views as new information is discovered.
    When people say some event is a miracle or magic, they are basically giving up and not trying to learn.

    Everything that has ever happened, ever, is explainable because something caused it.
    Science is about understanding how it works and what caused it.

    And to be clear, the only reason wizards in stories don't call it "science" is because they don't have a word for it.
    They just call it the same thing everyone else does (magic), but they don't think of it as something special. To a wizard, magic is normal.

    EDIT: -- An argument does not even require a reply. Arguments do not automatically mean anger or frustration.
    The Corrupted [ITA] likes this.
  15. Uhm, can you make up your mind?
  16. All_I_Do_Is_Dig

    All_I_Do_Is_Dig Lucky Number 13

    lol xD
  17. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    actually, yes i can and i did, the "actual magic i am talking about" is like i said before: miracles, mysteries and other stuff. Deadly, these are good points, i can only say that even if our character in early game will see something cool and will think "that was magical!" until he finds out what caused it (like you said)
    Now answer me this question and i will not argue with you anymore (maybe just discuss the answer): So creating a fireball in your bare palm, other people will call it magic/miracle whatever. BUT if you show that to a scientist i think he could figure it out. Like you said "magic is undiscovered science" and "When people say some event is a miracle or magic, they are basically giving up and not trying to learn", so if you study how to create a fireball in your bare palm it will be science will it? You learn how to create a fireball and you will call it science because "magic is undiscovered science" right? Again this is not a suggestion, this is only a neutral question.
  18. I guess it is already in the game in some form, but finding a giant alien weapon/other artifact and having to use time to research it on-site to produce a smaller (and less powerful) version might be fun. It might be also a reason to build a landbase around the artifact, since you would need to guard the researchers as they investigate.
    Slightly off-topic... or is it?

    The magic vs science conversation is a bit bitter sounding. What I personally like about magic is that it is usually based on something in the person using it. A power that some pickpocket can't use just because they stole your magic pendant. Though that is a pretty interesting setting too... But anyway.
    Devilforce: It's really no use skirting around the meaning of magic. Just because something doesn't use mana doesn't make it not magic.
    If you have a glove that makes fireballs, that's magic.
    If you have a glove powered by a crystal that concentrates heat from the environment onto a projectile (like a rock) and allows you to throw it, that would be more feasible as a scientific invention.
  19. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    Your message will end up quoted by some of these good people here that i am kindly "arguing" or "discussing" :)
  20. nelsolla

    nelsolla Big Damn Hero

    IT'S NOT MAGIC IT'S INEXPLICABLE SCIENCE. (Flameball-throwing robotic arms? YES YES YES.)

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