Important BETA RELEASE DISCUSSION - DECEMBER 4TH (*ALL* beta discussion goes here. Other threads deleted)

Well, he said "probably", so even if it's not on that day it should be close by, right? Right?

Unless he's drunk. There's always that possibility.

 

I know I am.
BETA FOR EVERYONE!

 

A delay is still time spent, the point is this - plugging a hundred hours into code doesn't necessarily mean a better game.

We're really not having the same discussion because you're scrutinizing my words and ignoring their context. They set the deadline for themselves, moreover - they sold a pre-order on the condition of a 2013 full release, then continuously failed to communicated any clear information at the progress of the beta or specific timeframe for its release.

None of your points address the fact that they set the timeline standards for themselves but I'll respond anyway - which will sound like a broken record

a.It's not unreasonable to ask someone to meet the time standards of someone else if it's your job, I actually do paint for a living and if a client gives me a 2 day deadline in which I agree to, then I deliver within the deadline because I'm a professional. Like I said before, they set the standard themselves - and sold preorders on the condition of a 2013 full release.

b.The developers do have prior experience, but that is irrelevant since they were the ones who as it were "wrote the contract" and made the deal that they failed to deliver.

c.They were the ones that set the expectation. I'm just going off of the information they give me. They kept saying "Soon" "So close" "Not very far off" for months with no other follow up information - I think "too long" is an apt description for their work ethic. More precisely, I didn't sign up for the pre-order with the thought: "this should come out in 2 months or it will be too long", they said "the game will come out in 2013 no matter what (full release) and purchasing pre-orders will speed up its release." They haven't officially specified the Beta release date and it's late December. I hate to break it to you but this is "too long" for the standards they set for themselves.

These points are for the sake of argument, I wouldn't have been bothered if they just delayed the game but they didn't. The just kept beating the around the bush.

 

Try to think of the whole preordering Starbound thing less like you are a major shareholder in a company (because you are not) and more like you're betting on a horse, in a race where every horse wins.

 

Mostly. I don't necessarily have the same threshold of "good enough for beta" as Chucklefish has. For me, "beta" meant the typical stuff you see on Steam Early Access -- good enough to prove concept, but not good enough to constitute a "fun to play" game. Chucklefish obviously thinks otherwise, and for them Beta is a "fun to play" state.

But it's their game and its their choice to decide. Criticizing is easy; coding is hard. I don't think I and my $45 I gave give me entitlement to impose my own understanding of "beta" on the developers, nor judge the quality of beta, nor really judge anything about the game until the "release" version.

And while like anyone else I wish the beta would be out sooner, I work in software development myself so I well understand that there is no such thing as a perfect deadline. Stuff always takes longer, no matter how you well you try to predict it. Thinking otherwise is ignoring the reality of what software development is like. Chucklefish's only mistake was trying originally predict something fundamentally unpredictable. They should have went with the Duke Nukem Forever stonewall style of "it'll be done when it's done, no further comment". But I'll forgive them for the honest effort of trying to predict the original release, because - see above - talk is cheap, work is hard. As long as the final version is great (unlike the aforementioned Duke Nukem Forever, for example), I won't really care how it was reached and how long it took.

And I find it incredibly unfair to accuse Chucklefish of poor community interaction. They are more open and interactive than any other game development studio I saw. Just because you don't hear from them exactly what you want to hear, doesn't mean they are not being interactive.

I didn't. I knew better.

The money added certainty that the project will actually not fail completely, and added scope/quality to what we'll eventually get. But you can't speed up a software project midway by throwing more money at it. There's even the adage saying that "adding more people to a late project makes it later", because people take time to ramp up and in the short term it takes longer than the final productivity benefit.

Absolutely.

See above. I didn't prepurchase to speed up development. I prepurchased because I supported the game and wanted my money to go into making it better.

 

No one thinks that you put money into the computer then it generates code. It's that if you can devote all of your time to a project because you are being paid for it - invariably it will be produced quicker than if you had a job consuming most of your time.

 

Lets just do shots.

 

You are right, but a game the scale of Starbound would never work as a "weekend project" anyways. It requires full-time dedication from a full-time team in order to even be possible.

I think that when Chucklefish went out with the initial $750,000 (or whatever their base goal was), they already knew it was enough to fund the team long enough for Beta. That money was already enough to fund their team at a full-time 40-50 hours/week pace. The fact they got $2,000,000+ does not mean they would suddenly be able to work 80-100 hours/week instead. Not does it mean they can suddently triple their dev team size and get triple the dev speed as a result because - see above - "adding more people to a late project makes it later".

There is a physical limit to how much both individuals and teams can scale, no matter how much extra money you throw at them. Another software development adage goes, "if a mother can make a baby in 9 months, that doesn't mean you can hire 9 mothers to make a baby in 1 month".

 

Some of this information is incorrect. Particularly the part about the full release being set for 2013. The original thread where Tiy announced they were thinking about preorders and how it would work, he specifically said that beta would be 2013 and that was the only thing promised. They were very hopeful that the full release would happen in 2013, but unfortunately it has not. The reason for the misconception that full release was promised for 2013 was due to ambiguous wording on the store page that did not differentiate between beta and full release. That has since been rectified.

 

Go home Wulpher, you're drunk... on Starbound.

 

Ahaha, I absolutely love that saying. Having tried to code a game before (I failed miserably as I was working two jobs at the time.) and done many other jobs with tight time restraints such as construction, painting, and cooking for that matter. I have never heard that saying. I think it's one of my favorites to date, and it sums up most people's complaints quite nicely if they take the time to read and understand it. As I've stated before I'm not upset that it's taking this long (I mean bitch and moan to friends and family, but that's more because I'm so damn bored then anything.) as I've said in the past. January 1st 2014, If I don't have a BETA, sure I'll complain then and raise hell. Not till then though.

Does their constant delays and failed release dates effect my opinion of them? Yes, I see them now as an infant company still learning the ropes on PR, how to handle the nightmare that is a community (We mean well, but...yeah ) and learning the invaluable lesson of never, ever hint at a date unless you can hit it. Because "There's a very really chance it won't come out in 2013" will turn into "Beta confirmed tomorrow, 11/27/2013 " by the forum-goers. Why? We're just rabid hounds like that I guess. I think some of their delays and mishaps are due to poor wording, again something they will learn. I for one am glad they are making an awesome game, and bringing other awesome games to light and to my attention. (Stardew Valley? Hell yes I want a bike.) That's just me though, if the Beta is out on Dev 4th? My ONLY complaint is that I work weekends so I won't be able to chug energy drinks for 4 days straight and play. I'll have to actually take a break like a normal person.

 

SHoo0w me the waaaay to go h0me....
I'mm tired and I wants to play starboond...
Xandaaar, your my best frend

 

Just heard about the beta release date posted on reddit a few hours ago.
Exciting stuff!
Cheers Tiy.

 

Depends. Is a finished game better than an unfinished one?

I could see your argument if we were talking about two different games, where one requires 100 hours of code (and gets it) where the other needs 50 hours (and gets it), however you're saying that a game that doesn't get enough time wouldn't have been made better by having enough time. I can't see that making sense.

Not to sound rude, but your context really doesn't change anything... They set the deadline themselves yes, and they were mistaken to do so. This is their first foray as a group at the very least, and the only one I know to have any experience with game development at all is Tiy, who as I understand it isn't even a programmer, much less someone with enough experience to judge the ability of other programmers.

I won't say you're not justified in being upset or anything like that (because they did miss their deadlines and all), but my main point here is that games do need time, but the exact amount can be very difficult to pin down when you haven't done it before. Please take that into consideration before accusing them of messing with us.

 

Regardless of my stake (or lack thereof) in starbound or chucklefish, i am allowed to have an opinion on how they handled things. As for your metaphor of horses... That couldn't make less sense. It'd be more like paying them for a game now that i would get later to "Help speed up development" as they said. Cause that's exactly why i did it. I just feel like it really didn't speed up a damn thing.

 

What the...
this better be some legit shit right here.

 

Nah, sorry dude. We've already figured out that he was drunk.

Move along people, nothing to see here

 

As a veteran kickstarter backer, I immediately recognised the 'pre-orders' to be essentially a kickstarter with a different name. I basically expected it to be like a kickstarter, with all that it means, including that deadlines can slip. I'm perfectly happy with how development has gone.

Funding was to help the devs work on the game full time, as opposed to part time because they had another job to survive. Full time > part time. More time to develop per day. More time per day means less days required. Logic says that development must have been sped up.

People saying development wasn't sped up are confusing cause and effect of two different things here. Development was sped up by the pre-order funding, but was delayed by problems occurring during development. Added together, the result was that development didn't appear to be going faster due to the pre-order, but if you look at the effect of funding separated from all other effects, it logically has to go faster. Alternatively, take out the effect of the pre-order funding from the previous cause/effect sentence, and you simply have a delay caused by problems occurring during development, and then development would obviously have taken longer if there was no pre-order.

As above. I expect beta when it appears, no earlier and no later.

 

star firex: Guys calm down he didn't specify a year...
HAHAHAHAH, oh man it seems something that you would see on the start of this thread