The Sociology of Profanity in Society

So, first post for me here. This community looks grand and I can't quite say in words how much I love the principles of this game.

Looking upon this thread, I'm both amazed and bewildered by the friendliness of the majority of people here - it's truly beyond what I've seen in any other community (only rivalled by my experiences in the Don't Starve community - and only really a small portion).

Getting passed that minor greeting, just wanted to add my 2 cents to the slightly derailed discussion at hand (not that it matters since this thread is effectively completed and serves no purpose to the OP any longer). So, I understand why the cuss word in question could be an issue to minors from a religious parent's perspective. This makes all too much sense (even if I have family reasons to heavily be bothered by this degree of subversion from my society's norm).

However, I do agree that 'swearing for the sake of swearing' is rather, how do you say, ugly writing. Yes, people swear quite often and for rather inane or arbitrary reasons - in our modern vernacular you don't need a reason to swear, what matters is your audience - but it is odd to see swearing in literature when it's the only isolated incident of this pattern as well as it being so meaningless as a variation from everything else.

You could argue that it's meant to be edgy as a way of fleshing out Alex. I would think there would be literally better ways of doing so that are more consistent with the rest of the writing. Besides: swearing is often a substitute for a proper vocabulary in so many people's lives that I'd rather discourage it than encourage even if I see no real problem with it so long as it isn't an attack on someone (directly or indirectly).

As for how I feel about the OP's complaint: I'm honestly jealous that they've gotten such amazing treatment here. Really, really jealous. My favourite game is dota and I'm often on a competitive team there, but I never land a 'perfect team'; my teams are always riddled with racism, sexism, homophobia - you name it. When I ask for change, I get assaulted for being a 'party pooper' (more often a 'white knight' despite them knowing I was married). When I neutrally left my last team in a way that didn't hurt their goals in any way (the same way you'd quit your job: giving warning and assisting in finding a replacement for yourself in any way possible, depending on the circumstances), I received messages from the worst offender insinuating that I was a baby who didn't have the backbone to survive anywhere on the Internet - let alone my favourite game. (They said more than that, but keeping it PG).
It hurts. It hurts a lot, and it was only 2 weeks ago that I left this team in question after trying to change their methods for over 2 months. They just 'couldn't live without racism and/or sexism'. Censoring the word "d**n"? To be in a community where my issues are narrowed down to censoring just a single word... It's an amazing feeling. And where they're even compliant? Unbelievable.

Warning: Spoiler contains opinion(s) on religion.

Anyway, I'm not a fan of religion dictating the lives of those who aren't religious under the pretense that 'otherwise' would be to discriminate against the values/morals of the pious individual, but I also understand that people of a pious nature are under fire now more so than any other time in history, so I really don't want to add to their problems.

Thanks all. Amazing community; love it.

 

@YayaBunWa, you sound like a fascinating person. I've been lucky enough to never have loved a game where my fellow fans were that disrespectful and intolerant, but I sympathize with your having to put up with it. I'd love to discuss the culture around different games and how SDV compares, but that would be something for another thread.

Also, I really agree with your mention that swearing isn't really a big issue until it is intentionally directed at someone with a harmful intent. I don't swear much myself and I prefer that people around me make an effort not to use the stronger words constantly, but I really draw the line at hurling insults at another person.

 

Something one should consider is that a game may have 20 characters, that do not swear but may have that one character that does. I don't think this is out of place because the whole idea is to have all sorts of personalities in the game. So I think swearing in literature represents the real world and is just a whole lot more realistic from my point of view.

I swear a lot. Maybe not in front of random people out in the world at least not often, but here on the net or with friends, I don't see a thing wrong with it. I never even understood the whole concept of a word even being "bad" to say. They are words, and they where made to be used. Why must it be seen as something bad just because there happens to be some people out there who act as if it's the worst thing in the world? If the word fits what you are trying to say, why not use it?

Again, I don't see how consistency has anything to do with it. First we need to accept the curse word in question isn't even seen as a curse word by majority of people. Second, as I said above, just because there happens to be many characters who don't use the word doesn't mean you shouldn't have a character that does. To me, you would have to be a terrible writer to think everyone needs to be consistent. They are all difference characters, of course they are not consistent.

Also swearing isn't a substitute for proper vocabulary. In fact recent studies have shown those who swear actually seem to have a wider vocabulary range than those who don't. Those who are more creative with their swear words tend to even more so have a higher vocabulary. I don't know how accurate the studies are, but the point I am making is, those words are words and nothing more. No word is less than any other word. You can't call them a substitute for proper vocabulary, because who decided they are not proper words to begin with? Of course they are proper, some people just happen to not like them, but I say who cares.

The only time I discourage people from doing anything is when it's legitimately harmful to them or someone else. Curse words being bad, is just non sense that some people where indoctrinated into thinking.

 

Tone and expression supersedes any style of prose/collection of words used. And can be applied to a lot of things dealing with human interaction, basically.

I do consistently well in writing by receiving high praise, and am great at interviewing people (w/o cussing mind you).

What's so bad about being "improper?" If it's not in malice, it reduces the formality of things. So, why not?

But you know, its so bad... Because, I curse as they say, like a sailor. Why? Why should speech be assumed to be synonymous with the type of person someone is on the grounds of morality and the choices they make?

Time and place, and also speech is a part the that's who that person's character. It's not trying to be edgy, man.

 

I think this sums it up pretty nicely.

My thoughts on this issue are that swearing is a part of life, but it depends on the situation and context.
I think it's extremely poor parenting to try and block all swearing from someone's life-
Censorship doesn't teach one anything, meaningful discussion does.

Swearing changes based on the formality of the medium or situation. Literature is fairly formal, so seeing swears there is more shocking than, say, walking around in a city.
Academia? No. With your friends? Yeah, depending on the friends.

No, not really. The writing is there to reflect personality, and tendency to swear (or not) is part of that in addition to other writing mechanisms.

The cliché "limited vocabulary" argument. When we talk about people swearing in real life, it's not common that we're talking about at a level like the Trailer Park Boys.
It depends on the situation and the formality level, but one can have an academic level vocabulary and still swear.

Why? It's a bit to get into, but the main point I've postulated over time is that swearing is cogent.
It's a really quick way to emphasize something or get your point across - no four or five syllable words necessary. Don't use a $5 word when a 10 or 20 cent word will do.
Intonation / Inflection plays a big role as well.

Consider->
"That hurts!".
"That really hurts!".
"That fucking hurts!"

Different levels of emotion.

Consider->
"That's awful."
"That sucks."
"That's shitty."

First of all, apparently "That sucks" used to be a taboo saying. Now it's not.
All of those phrases have completely different meanings, and usage really depends on the context, but all are valid.

That's a hefty bit of an exaggeration of the DotA2 community. Yes, like any other place on the internet, you'll have to deal with stuff like this, but overall it's really not that bad.
I have about ~1k hours of DotA and that stuff is a fairly small percentage of the userbase.

Your team experience is an anecdotal experience. Here's my anecdotal experience: My team was with people who would not ever have that kind of mentality.
As the saying goes, surround yourself with people that lift you up.
Empirical Evidence >>> Anecdotal Evidence.

Yeah, it is censorship.
And really, 'Damn' is such a soft swear. 'Shit' and 'Fuck' would be actual swears, 'Damn' kinda just straddles the line between acceptable and taboo, with "Goddamn" being a harsher form.

Well said.

I was one of those kids who grew up in a religious household.
I can say without a doubt that I feel very sad for some kids who get sheltered for their entire youth.
Knowing about swearing does not mean that you condone it. But it's important to be knowledgeable instead of sheltered. Same goes for discussion of drugs, sex, violence, and the ilk.

Censorship only stifles meaningful discussion and is a form of control.

 

Thank you. Censorship cuts off exchange of ideas and thoughts that are otherwise left to ones personal perception (which may or may not be tunneled for various reasons).

Also. Trailer Park Boys is life.

 

While I wouldn't exactly use such phrasing, I had similar thoughts until I saw this post:

It put things into perspective. This would be a more reasonable explanation that doesn't make me question the OP's ability to tolerate simple words. If you're a kid under strict parents, there isn't much you can do

 

I suppose this does technically count as a form of censorship, but I kind of hate to see that word applied to someone's choice of what they do or don't personally want to experience. It would be if they were trying to ask that it be removed from the base game, not so much when they want a completely optional mod for personal use.

Anyway, I'm going to try to stop interrupting this thread with further tangents that have nothing to do with the creation, updating, or use of this mod.

 

Both of these have the same root word, 'Jesus', which to some people is itself a 'cuss' word (because of the whole 'taking the Lord's name in vain' thing - which is kind of stupid, because that's not meant to refer to Jesus [whose name wasn't even Jesus, but Ieshua/Yeshua], but to YHWH himself, the 'true' name of God or any of the names he's called by).

 

Yes, I'm aware it can still be seen as offensive, but it was the best I could come up with on short notice. I needed to do this quickly because I need to focus on the project I'm currently working on. As I believe I said before, I am open to suggestions on what else I could use to convey a similar feeling, while also maintaining some level of the previous character that it had. This kind of thing is always hard with censoring things, because it can sometimes be difficult to convey the same meaning in a less offensive way, without altering the original character of the sentence or material.

 

That's actually the reason those words are used, because while it's obvious where the etymology is, there is no person in any religion (that I know of at least) named "Jeez" or "Geeze", thus it's not taking anybody's name in vain (or any variation of the same taboo).

 

Keep in mind, the people saying what is or isn't a swear word isn't what's up for debate: Well... it kinda is. D*mn (just for you, OP) isn't considered a swear word by the vast majority of the population. Like vast vast.

So, how exactly could someone come up with a no-cussing mod for the general populace when the word in question isn't a cuss word to said general populace? This was her original request, asking if one existed. This is what prompted people to say that it's not a bad word, etc.

On top of that, based on the OP, there's other words she's read that she doesn't agree with that are in the game... But she also seems to refuse to say them or even reference them, in which case a request thread seems counter productive as well - how can someone edit a word out of the game... if they don't know what words are considered offensive? She has a heightened sensitivity to words she perceives as bad, but due to the fact it seems most of the words she has an issue with others don't (as they're in the game in the first place and it's been getting G ratings on tons of sites, which means reputable sites have labeled it as okay for young children). It doesn't mean she's wrong, she just has different opinions, and I think that's where some people g

On top of this, on the same way she considers d*mn a bad word, I know people who consider eggplant a bad word because of the connotations people associate with it on emojis. Even just seeing a pixelated Eggplant is horrible for them.

People have been great at editing d*mn out in small updates for the OP. But I mostly just needed to point out that unless she gives an entire list of the words she considers offensive ,there's literally no way for anyone to make a mod that edits them out, as the words used in the game aren't considered bad by the major populace.

I still think it's great people are being so nice and helpful to her. I just wanted to explain some of the mindsets some others are having which prompts their comments.

 

Well, my night's ruined.

I take back what I said about this community being amazing - it's suddenly indifferent to any other male-centric community. I'm beyond disgusted by the responses I've so far seen to both 'Dota' - of all things - and the swearing. I'd respond to any of you but there's clearly no point. Opinions is really all I see, and any progression or tactfulness this thread once had has been thrown out the window in exchange for expositions.

(And thanks guys for uncensoring the word we were avoiding--because imposing your right to swear doesn't just scream 'Man-child'. Bravo).

Thanks for dismissing everything I said.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/GillyGamesh/
At least you mentioned how much time you've spent on the game. In case you can't be bothered clicking that link to my profile, I have over 7.5 thousand hours on Dota. Suffice to say: I've got a really good idea of what I'm talking about after over a dozen teams spanning the last 4 years of my life; it's been a huge proponent of my identity, but hey, you're allowed an opinion, right? Everyone's always allowed a fucking opinion.

I can really see why people who quit gaming say that they always have the issue that their experiences are pigeon-holed into being "anecdotal" whenever they try to reflect or spread their experience(s) about (or with) the gaming community or its many microcosms. Till now I thought that that feeling was reserved for minorities, but it seems that all you need to do is express an unpopular opinion and then just wait for a dude to come along. Given I won't be returning to this forum, I'll use my imagination to foresee the filth that'll be under my quoted name soon--and it doesn't seem to be letting me down as I see "lol overreaction duckface" as the top comment.

Goodbye what was thought to be a dream community. The fairytale was splendid.

 

I'm not sure what you're suddenly so fatalistic over, but a word of advice: Looking down on others and calling them man-children is not the way to go. That's derogatory, presumptuous and generalizing all at once. You're personally doing things what most people here find worse than the 'curseword' "Damn." You're directly insulting people, generalizing them, and just looking down on them. Your whole post has a tone of looking down on others and pushes everyone into the "man-child" category. In my opinion, you're now no better than the people you described in your anecdote of DotA2.
Yes, people have been more discussing opinions and viewpoints rather than the mod itself, but Fyn makes a great point just two posts above yours. There isn't much we can discuss about the mod if we don't know what else to do. Until the OP comes around to give a nice list of things that need to be censored, nobody can help them.

When I look at this thread, aside from the one post that rightfully got banned, I see overall respect. Yes, there are plenty of people who disagree and who are baffled, especially towards the end, but that doesn't make them bad people. That simply makes them people who disagree, not "man-children".

 

WOW.
You are sure on the money for this to be interpreted as the "lol overreaction duck face."

I don't think his comment was meant to diss, it was responses toward to what you have said. Which pretty much throws shade at people who choose to express themselves through curse words. You just said some stupid stuff that you got called out on. Not the same as dissing.

Get your slang game on point.

Also, I love how you try to point out people are typing the word "damn." While this is a thread to censor it and you go drop a f-bomb out of [unecessary and petty] frustration.

Also you're being overtly dramatic about something ISN'T ABOUT THIS TOPIC OR MOD.

No one waited for a comment that did not happen yet. Why be upset when you new you brought forth different ideas to understand and empathize from? THAT IS WHAT CRITICAL THINKING IS.

Please. I could understand being upset over what someone said, but you must also understand that your argument can get a better counter argument. That's the whole point of even making one.

I see a equal amount of people who consider them female or feminine in the Mod section of this forum. I dont see this area as "male-centric" at all. Sure there are some jerks, but they don't represent the majority that lurk this section of Chucklefish Forums. I am an <amazing> chick. Fallacy on this point.

 

@ricochetray , @bulbaswat updated the word in question to both Clint and Alex's file for the 1.07 update. (Thank you!) It is here. I am posting it again so you can easily find it in the thread and don't have to worry about seeing other words that were posted in very poor taste and/or with no consideration within a thread pertaining to a No Cussing fix (I'm not even going to list all the perpetrators). Hopefully your Alert will take you straight to this one comment.

 

I had completely missed that point! That's awfully hypocritical indeed!

Are you sure?

 

LOL. Omg I KNOW. It's these stupid titles they give for posting. I'm trying to post enough to get rid of it. Throwing people off!!!

Thanks for pointing it out hahahahahah

 

Huh. I did not know that thanks for pointing this out! I'm going to have to stop using that word now. While I am not religious, I have friends that are. And because I respect them and their beliefs, I censor the well know OMG phrase to 'Oh my gosh!' It's such a habit at this point that I do it all the time in all situations where the phrase comes into use and am very pleased it comes so naturally to me. Especially when I am with my religious friends. And I am always heavily amused when they then use the default phrase themselves. This alternate phrase also comes in handy when I am around people I don't know well enough to know their views on things or when I am amoung complete strangers.

@bulbaswat , would you mind typing the censored phrase Clint uses? I can put forth some suggestions then for alternate words. If others give suggestions too then the two phrases in question will hopefully have the greatest success of not offending anyone.

For Alex, I also suggested "You know what?" But I'm striking that one due to remembering what I learned last semester in my Interpersonal Communications class. So how about 'Man'? I think that word would suits his personality and feels like something he would say.

 

Oh right, I completely forgot to give my suggestion in this thread.
What about "Man, I could go for a burger"? I think that fits the best. Better than sheesh or geez or what have you.