Community The Agaran Menace

Grass is super effective against water x)

 

I think you're mistaken about something. Florans, more often than not are personable. They like things and people and birds and apes and, not fish, and robots. The issue is that they are similarly hyper aggressive and tend to have little to no inhibitions. Couple that with the fact that they don't acknowledge any meat based life form as true sapience and they've no qualms stabbing it.

So they'll be friendly, nice, complement you on your hat, but for the most part won't think twice about shanking you. Cause well, to them you're no different than a chicken, a rather clever chicken, but a chicken.

Fickleness + hyper aggression + no acknowledgement of sapience of any other race + disregard for nonplant based matter + curiosity + jovial attitudes = Florans

 

Exactly. But more to the point:

The Agarans merely imprison Florans, rather than kill them on sight. Does this not show compassion? (A lot of famous people have said that we can learn a lot about a civilization by the way they treat their poor, their domestic animals, and their prisoners.) Knowing the Florans, many of them would not hesitate to kill an Agaran, given the chance.

(Of course, this assumes the imprisoned Florans did something to warrant imprisonment. If the Agarans invaded Floran villages and/or are mutating them into Agarans, then that's altogether different.)

The 'observed behavior' that Shaadaris was talking about includes an observed tendency for Florans to stab (or shoot) anyone who's not Floran or Glitch (the latter due to being unable to eat them). If they have their way, many would sooner eat you than talk with you. You may give any kind of excuse you want for that behavior, but by any other name it means Florans are among the most racist in the entire Universe. From observed behaviors, Agarans appear very civilized and tolerant towards other sapients by comparison.

When anyone defends Florans by saying it's only because they do not recognize any meat-based races as sentient (ignoring the fact that they can talk with others and even understand what they say), they're actually supporting the notion that they tend to be extremely racist. It's as if Florans consider themselves superior to all other races, save perhaps for the Glitch, and that they (as a general rule) consider all the rest to be too stupid and/or inferior to be at their own level of the food chain.

Of course, Florans probably feel rather justified in such beliefs, considering how lethal they are compared with other races. Often, they really -are- the top of the food chain! And that Florans are so strong and deadly is the reasoning behind some of the theories why the Miniknog seem to be blending Floran DNA with Apex test subjects.

On the other hand, I will admit that I am making some very, very broad generalizations here. Indeed, as others have already pointed out, there are quite a number of Florans out there who are tolerant. Some even being pacifists. There are entire Floran villages that are peaceful.

But due to my generalizations, I suppose I risk being labeled "racist", myself...

Final thoughts: Some might find the notion of Florans eating other sentients to be extremely disturbing and immoral, bordering on cannibalism. But consider for a moment: How many of us have killed Penguin Troopers dropped from the UFO? And how often do those kills drop Raw Alien Meat? And do you recall ever cooking and/or eating some alien meat after this point?

 

Definitely a possibility.

 

Florans+Agarans vs Hylotl+Thornwing vs Big Ape+Miniknog? filled with the classic betrayal, intrigue, and experimentation of course.

 

Meanwhile the Novakids are trying to remember where they left their space ship keys, Humans are fighting against hentai monsters and Glitch discover the meaning of their existence.

 

Hey! It's back!

 

• Alpha Umbrexion II
• Japan
• 42

 

Spaceship keys? Silly meatman, in Novakid country, our bodies ARE the keys!

 

That just makes your chronic condition that much more tragic then.

 

Chronic?

 

I recall. Florans can cook Meat'n'Marrow which is a excelent late-game potion for non mod users. And it uses meat chunks, crafted with alien meat. Is more easy now with the Heck mini biomes too. But i'm still needing to go back to alpha sector some times and spam hunting knife, since I don't use any mod that adds potions to the game.

 

Just gonna go ahead and dismantle allllllllllllll of this

I want you to read one of those fine words in parenthesis. Treat

Having prisoners doesn't make you a compassionate society, the worst and the best societies have had prisoners. Athens has had prisoners and likewise so have the Nazis. But the way they treat them is what makes the difference, and how Agarans treat their Floran prisoners... isn't all that different from how Florans treat their prisoners (read, extremely not humane)

Florans fear sprinklers
Florans are under extreme duress in heat
Drysap is basically a drug/hallucinogen with terrible side effects for florans.

All of these things, Agarans keep in close proximity of their captives.

Greenfinger has noted that it goes beyond an inability to eat, Florans and Glitch have an unquestionable camaraderie that is shocking among races, which he can't for the life of him, figure out the reasoning is. There's like he said, "more than physiology" the florans and glitch have an "affinity" for one another.

But they do have their way. They set in laws to appropriately allow vistors, albeit fickle ones due to Florans being fickle. They choose to let other races come in and mingle. It's not like someone else imposed such laws on them, they just chose too.

From observation, we can't ascertain what Agaran's opinions of other races are, since you know... translation problems. They could be insulting your people with every other word, you wouldn't know.

You'd be quite surprised at how tone can mask things in different languages if you're unaware of the language.

Yeah, I'm certain you don't now. A disregard for Sapience, isn't inferring superiority of one's own race or inferiority of another. It is simply that, a disregard of sapience, Florans literally can't comprehend the possibility of such things in nonplant things. This doesn't mean they think that the other races are inferior to them in intelligence, strength, social standing, culture or otherwise. They just see us like we see dogs. Would you say that you're racist to dogs cause you don't address them as sapient?

Their belief has nothing to do with their prowess, they just can't acknowledge it. Nothing in Floran speech or codices disregard the efforts of other species, that's hylotl. In fact they're quite keen on and very receptive of the progress of other races. But again, they can't come to the conclusion that creatures who aren't plants can attain sapience. It's a biological thing.

You are making broad generalizations, and wrong ones at that. Most Florans are tolerant, they are also extremely fickle and change like the seasons. Florans are willing to accept any race within their midst, though one's safety is paltry at best. Unless you're a hylotl, Florans hate Hyltol. Which can be defined as racist.

 

1. Its a good point but Florans aren't afraid of sprinklers

2.The lore actually portrays the Glitch as in a similar way to parents, trying to teach them as technologically/culturally speaking they are similar and although the Florans tend to ignore them o'r in the rare attempts they do, end up trying to stab them. They do respect them and i wont deny that, but its clearly said that they have a limited grasp of the concept of non-plant life, they are a hunter/tribal people and regard the other races as prey o'r sport, i have no doubt one of the reasons the Glitch were able to interact with them was because they couldn't be easily stabbed or eaten.

3.The reason they don't kill you on sight is because of Greenfingers law that says they cant kill you in their village unless you offend them (don't eat raw meat,attack them, be a Hylotl) and there are many cases of them ignoring that rule.

4.Valid point, we have some basic translations that contradict it, but they are all speculation, but they seem rather accurate.

5.All the races in starbound are racist, that's a fact, but i have to agree that the Floran are by far the worst, the Hylotl are condescending and look down upon people yet they acknowledge them as sapient beings, the fact that they can barely comprehend sapient life is not an excuse, its speciesism, Innocent and unintentional but still very racist.

6.Yes they do, races often regard each other as weaker or slower than they are but its still the fact that they realize they are people, the fact that they see people as the equivalent to household pets takes it to a whole new level.

7.Its not a biological thing or we could not regard plant based life as sapient and clearly people recognize Florans as an individual sapient culture.

 

http://starbounder.org/Small_Fountain

And Greenfinger, who's still going for smartest person in the universe had come to the conclusion that it goes deeper than a mere teacher student relation situationship. Which is supported by lore and statements. And it's not merely Floran's being flippant to Glitch, they tend to be quite receptive to them.

Please don't lie, it's unseemly. It's due to floran custom. Greenfinger makes no inference to having established that law.

I'd very much like these examples of ignoring the law.

Except it isn't. That's not how racism works. Florans aren;t discriminating or hating on another race, unless you're hylotl. They merely don't acknowledge them as sapient because they do not fit their definition of sapience. For florans, Sapience hinges on a biological factor which in itself removes their definition from the jumbled mess that is the human's definition, which has so many arbitrary points and specifications.

From what we know of the florans. It's a simple check system.

Is it a plant?
[x] Yes - It's sapient
[x] No - It's not sapient.

There's no ill will, no inference of superiority, no consideration of culture and facets. It's about whether the creature is plant like or not.

It'd be like asking someone to call you blue when from their eye you're clearly orange.

And what is this distinction that brings other races above animals of less distinct 'human' traits? There are many animals that have laguages, roles, societies and tools, yet we don't consider them sapient.

It's a biological thing FOR FLORANS

 

Just like most plants do!

 

There is no evidence that the Agarans give them access to drysap and tend to keep magma nearby with the knowledge that it's harmful to them or can make them feel miserable. Indeed, the Agarans may have gotten the idea to do this from observing Floran prisons and coming to the (flawed) conclusion that this was the proper way to care for them. (Or maybe, as theorized, they use drysap and heat to encourage spores to transform them into Agarans?)

Florans, like other races, can't speak or understand the Agaran language. Remember? So how would the Agarans know better?

In trying to explain how Agarans might misunderstand the needs of Florans, I'm reminded of Battlefield Earth (2000), where Psychlos conquer Earth and enslaves humans, whom they consider little more than rather clever animals. (They've conquered countless planets and consider all other species as such.)

Teri, the alien left in charge, was posted to Earth as punishment. He had ambitions to use humans to mine gold and buy his way off-planet. So he studied humans and their culture to see how he might use them for this. But he was presumptuous in his knowledge, deluding himself with assumptions.

One day, he observed a human who captured a rat and then cooked it and ate it with relish. He came to the conclusion that rat must be humans' favorite food and later tried to entice them to work for him with the promise of lots of rat to eat. He failed to understand that it was because the human was famished. (And I bet the gruel they serve slaves isn't very apitizing.)

Good points.

Also, remember the Codex story of how a Penguin had disguised himself as Glitch and set himself up as their king? Remember the atrocities of this king, how he had the Glitch work themselves to death? Remember how a visiting Floran ran up and stabbed the Glitch king, revealing the Penguin's reign of deception? The Floran did this simply because she was bored out of her mind. Nevertheless, the Glitch were very grateful.

So it -is- like someone imposed such a law on them. And by ignoring that law, it sounds like many don't agree with it. Imagine how many Florans would behave without that law.

Emphasis added.

Indeed.

I'm sure a number bigots and slavers have compared an ethnic group to dogs, even treating them as such. And I don't doubt they believe in their own rhetoric. Historically (and, sadly, to this day) humans kept others as slaves, treating them as property - much like we treat animals. Similarly, a number of Florans consider other races as clever animals and treat them as such (or, at least, they would if it wasn't for Greenfinger's laws).

Would you excuse the behavior of bigots and slavers by saying, "Well, they don't know any better. They were not raised to be tolerant. So they aren't really racist"?

Yes. And some Florans do accept that meat-based species can be sapient, so it's not totally beyond their ability to comprehend. Rather, it's a matter of tolerance and understanding. Also, even if Florans can't comprehend sapience in others, that's irrelevant. It's still speciesism. And they have little excuse, because they can speak with and understand others clearly.

We can't even communicate with Agarans, yet even Greenfinger acknowledges that they are clearly sentient.

Racism in RL has to do with ethnicity, which is so shallow as to consider things like the color of one's skin and the slant of one's eyes as evidence of one's intelligence, creativity and other factors... in extreme cases extending to freedom and birthrights. It's superficial, flawed thinking.

In Starbound, we're talking about species, not races. As such, there's more of an excuse to categorize and label based on perceived strengths and weaknesses. For example, few can argue that Florans really are exceptional hunters or that Hylotl are truly exceptional swimmers. But what is Floran attitudes of meat-based spacefarers other than misconceptions of inferiority based on species; i.e., speciesism?

My understanding of Florans is that (generally speaking) they consider Hyltol as "fish". I'm guessing, but I suspect it's even harder for Florans to consider a fish species as sentient or compare them to themselves. That's probably why they invaded the Hyltol homeworld first, whereas they have yet to invade the other spacefaring homeworlds.

Florans should not HATE Hylotl - or any meat-based species, for that matter. Rather, they are thinking plants and, so, they think they should be the top of the food chain. (Nobody can say Chucklefish doesn't have a sense of humor.)

Hate is contempt, which you reserve for enemies and peers who have wronged you or others. You might swear at flies or mosquitoes for biting you, but you can't really blame them for being the way mother nature designed them. If a buffalo or lioness attacks you in defense of itself or it's young, that's to be expected. If they managed to injure you, despite being a skilled hunter using deadly weapons, you have to admire it's tenacity. You may be tempted to preserve its head and mount it on a wall to recall the tale and show it off to others.

...You know what? You bring up a good point:

Florans are not a good example of racists. That would imply they hate on other races, which they clearly do not. They're not xenophobic, either, as they don't fear or distrust others so much as disregard them as equals with their own rights. (With the exception of Agarans. And who doesn't distrust them?) Indeed, the only similar term that fits is speciesist, of which they may be the biggest known example in the Universe. (We don't know enough about Agarans to determine their attitudes.)

I was wrong. And yet, it was because I merely failed to grasp the right term.

 

Ignorance has not, is not and will continue to never be a valid excuse. Whether or not they saw other's doing it and chose to emulate it, it's still their personal responsibility and is proof of inhumane treatment. It's not like Florans are not vocal about things they like or dislike, so an excuse of them being unaware falls exceptionally flat.

I mean, this isn't even a rebuttal, you're just shifting the point of contention.

Guess how much vocabulary counts in comparison to body language? (Hint: not a lot)

I don't even understand what you're trying to get across with this story as it doesn't excuse anything.

And the glitch still banished her. Which doesn't account for the aware glitch who are supposedly even more receptive to the Florans. That may be the source of it, but it's not indivisible proof. And greenfinger didn't merely place it as a one sided affection. Florans are just as fond of the glitch as the glitch are of them.

I certainly don't like you misquoting me. And especially leaving out my rebuttal to that point. The law was a custom. Not something imposed, but something they chose to do for whatever reason. And lore indicates the exact opposite of florans hating the law, it's suggested they believe in it to a serious degree, the problem is that they are so fickle that it ultimately doesn't amount to much.

I don't need you emphasizing things I already replied to. You're neither Villhelm or his mother, if he wants to counter argue or emphasize his own personal point, then damn well let him.

And I can certainly bring forth numerous documents that this fallacy is a bold face lie. The whole 'inferior beings' propaganda was entirely that, propaganda. It was not created out of an inherent belief that other humans are inherently inferior, but as a justification for why slavery should continue. And is wholely tied to slavery in the Souther states of the USA. It's not a common trend in slavery world wide, not even close.

And what is with people continuing to make up these 'greenfinger laws'

No, but then again that's a completely different thing to the point being made. Sapience for Florans as a race is not an ideology based on certain matters. it's a point of Whether or not they are plants. By suggesting they cosign to other beliefs of sapience is your excuse to judge their biological traits. It's not ignorance or misguided belief.

Their sapience calls for foliage.

Why should they curb their genetic development to your beliefs?

And how is it specieism? which ... ISN'T A WORD

How does it suggest that Florans believe themselves inherently superior?
How does it suggest that Florans believe it's their right to rule?
What hatred or intolerance does it breath within florans for other races?
What Floran laws inherently discriminate against nonflorans?
What poor treatment has been attributed to their defined species (note the poor treatment has to be because they aren't florans, not because florans are inherently known to not have many humane standards)

You postulate racism, and yet give no definite proof to substantially validate said claims. I mean I can give you numerous reasons why Florans are racist to Hylotl. I wouldn't mark their inability to recognize them as sapient as one of them.

Because sapience has no bearing on their actions towards or belief of other species, other than them not seeing them as life. Which really is a matter of philosophical determinants rather than racial ones.

Greenfinger has yet to be noted in regards to Agarans.

And even if Florans do consider them Sapient, guess what Agarans fulfill that other species don't?

Being Plants? BEING PLANTS

You've brought none. You suggest they consider other species are considered inferior and then go on to provide no example. (maybe cause there is none)

Your theory crafting has no proof or merit. There's nothing indicating that Florans have a hierarchy of 'sentience' for meat based creatures. Just that for their understanding. Plants = life, Not plants =/= life.

And there's no lore one way or the other to say what caused the floran invasion. Though there are some floran statements that suggest that it was a result of something the Hylotl did to them and not just cause Hylotl are 'fish'

Florans have a reason for hating Hylotl, we just don't know what that reason is. There's been no suggestion that Florans hate any of the other races.

Hate is contempt, which you reserve for enemies and peers who have wronged you or others. You might swear at flies or mosquitoes for biting you, but you can't really blame them for being the way mother nature designed them. If a buffalo or lioness attacks you in defense of itself or it's young, that's to be expected. If they managed to injure you, despite being a skilled hunter using deadly weapons, you have to admire it's tenacity. You may be tempted to preserve its head and mount it on a wall to recall the tale and show it off to others.

...You know what? You bring up a good point:

true.

Look at all this proof you have, I can hold it with my fifth hand it's so voluminous.

I do believe you mistake the pods for Agarans. Florans clearly have issue with the pods, but there's no indication in their dialogue that they have issue with Agarans. And no the pods and Agarans are not synonymous until further proof is given.

I suppose if that made up term fits whatever you're trying to go for, sure...

 

I thought this thread was about Agarans....

 

No, it's the official Agarans are stupid and oblivious to what they do thread now