Playing Nightly makes me worried

The major difference is... 'New players' vs 'Old players' If the game had mandatory ore drops on death in the first place, a bunch of people wouldn't have bought/paid/supported the game. I for one don't support roguelikes, or stuff with hideously poor death penalties. So, that's why many of us are upset over this change. Sure, that's the risk you take with early access stuff, but they also basically implied the game was mostly finished and so on too... If you took a car for example, said 'I just need to paint the hood, and it'll be done, but I need investors' a bunch of people invest, then suddenly you go, "On second thought, I don't like this car, I'll break it down, start over, and make a motorcycle instead" that's kind of what Chucklefish has done here. They've redone the game entirely from the ground up, changed almost every single aspect about it, and added in good things, but they also added in or changed things that completely ruin the game for many of us. So to complete the analogy, We didn't invest in a motorcycle, we invested in a car.

 

Mandatoy ore drops hardly constitutes breaking down the whole car, and dropping ores on death hardly constitutes a roguelike game. It's actually a fairly generous penalty compared to games like Minecraft that takes all of your stuff when you die. Its not hard to get around. Just put your ores in a box when you're not using them.

The ore drop will likely become a difficulty option anyway, so I don't think you have to worry

 

I was actually referring to the fact they have redone pretty much everything in the game. They've redone weapons/equipment/status effects/hunger/terrain generation/the universe/ the ship/the quest system/ the bosses and so on. If it were purely improvements that's one thing. But they tweaked things, such as combat/walking backwards/ore drops that are definitely not 'improvements' to some. To say all the stuff they've done isn't an extreme radical change in the way the game is designed would be a lie. If some of these things were in the game from the start, a lot of people wouldn't have even supported the game. Ore drops being one of the primary things.

 

Taken straight from Steam's early Access page. Notice that nowhere in there does it say "This game is nearly finished and won't have any significant changes". Early Access is meant as a way for players to support indie developers and get a sneak peek at upcoming games, not as a way for players to tell developers what they can and can't do with their game just because they paid $15 for an early version that they got attached to

 

I think you are confusing providing feedback with telling developers what to do.

It's meant to be developed with the players involvement (i.e feedback driven). If they want to ignore feedback then they should finance their own games, or be clear that they aren't developing a game with "the community's involvement". Not saying Chucklefish are doing one or the other, but let's not describe constructive feedback as demands of what a developer can and can't do with their own game.

That is my reading of what early access is anyway (so it says on the stuff poster above provided).

Shoot, burn and stab an effigy of me if I am wrong.

 

Just because a few people don't like a certain addition, doesn't mean that everyone hates it and by making that addition they're ignoring the community. Just because a developer doesn't pander to every whim of the community doesn't mean that they're disregarding their fans. There are a lot of people that like the idea of dropping ores on death. Just look at the success of roguelike games if you don't believe me.

With any change to a game, developers are going to alienate some players while simultaneously pleasing other players. It's impossible to do anything without making someone unhappy, so Chucklefish has to decide how to best take feedback without completely abandoning their vision.

Besides, no change is set in stone. If the developers see that people don't like a certain change to the game, they are likely to alter it in some way. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but eventually. Just because they don't react immediately doesn't mean that they've abandoned us.

 

Just because a few people like a certain addition doesn't mean it's fair for other players, especially if it's mandatory.

 

Uh, I couldn't find the blog post/news update if I was paid to, but awhile ago it was posted by one of the developers that the game was nearly finished, they also had a progress meter that showed as much. I'm not the only one who has pointed out this glaring flaw at the fact Chucklefish has basically completely started over on the game basically after stating it was almost finished.[DOUBLEPOST=1416173093][/DOUBLEPOST]

The problem is not with ore drops in of itself. The problem is that they are forcing the change into the lowest difficulty. Pretty much no one would have had any problems with the change if they made a new higher difficulty tier(as has been suggested probably dozens of times already) just like they've already done when they added in hardcore and permadeath in the first place. Also, 'success of roguelike games'? Roguelikes are actually a niche market, so the most part, the only people that are going to be buying and playing them, are going to be people who like that kind of thing in the first place. You'll notice that pretty much only indie developers have made any. I'm certainly not aware of any roguelikes that are actually mainstream games. Anyway, the point is, this game is labeled as a casual game. Forcing tedious difficulty changes and annoyances such as forced ore drops directly contradicts this.

 

Is that really the reason? It seems a bit odd, especially since you can still just quit to return to the ship.

But if that is the reason, I think they have it backwards. People want to be able to return to the ship quickly; so the game ought to, generally, offer it to them --Starbound needs a magic mirror like Terraria has. As a player, I am generally more interested in the game giving me a sense of freedom (especially in multiplayer, where I want to be able to quickly warp back to meet up with my friends) than I am in it giving a sense of deep oppressive caves.

Don't get me wrong, I like games with deep oppressive caves; but that's absolutely not what I'm looking for from a game like Starbound. What I want in Starbound is lots of mobility and freedom.[DOUBLEPOST=1416176604][/DOUBLEPOST]

I completely disagree.

Starbound, based on its description, is primarily a space exploration and adventure game. It isn't a survival game; that's just the starting scenario and the excuse it uses for its tutorial. It's not a mining game (mining is just one small feature, and one of the many different optional things you can do); you're also supposed to be able to play as a trader, a bounty-hunter, an adventurer or explorer, and so on.

Everything they've said in their updates has indicated that this is their core focus; while it offers some elements from them, Starbound was never intended to be primarily a survival or mining game. I think that the ores dropping on death (and the grindy aspects related to mining) are generally temporary mistakes that are going to be fixed as they get feedback from the community on the currently-unfun state of the game's balance... and, of course, as new options and mechanics are implemented to provide alternative advancement paths.

But mostly, I think that Starbound is meant to be based on freewheeling space adventure games like Elite. It's a game about exploring the galaxy, not about progressively grinding more ore to upgrade your pickaxe.

 

Well it's clear that Chucklefish made a mistake in saying that they were nearly finished, and it's a good thing too. If they had been correct in that blog post we would never get the things they promised us like pets, fossils, quests, shield generators, upgradable ships, merchants, and a lot more. I'm sorry that they got your hopes up for a 1.0, but it's clear that they still aren't close to that yet. In the end I'd rather see Starbound evolve into what they promised us in the original early access than keeping it as close to what they said in a clearly over optimistic blog post.

Like I said earlier, with the amount of dissatisfaction at the mandatory ore drops, they'll probably make it into a difficulty level. That was probably always the way it was going to be, but since they have to make sure the mechanic works first, they had to implement it before they could modify it. If that wasn't the idea from the start, I'm sure they'll make it an option eventually. Just because they didn't do it yesterday or today or the second you got irritated doesn't mean they have abandoned the community.

Congratulations, you just described how the free market works. Of course the only people that buy them are the people that like them. I wouldn't buy a game I didn't like. No one looks at a game and says "I don't like this kind of game. I think I'll buy it!"

Just because it's an indie game doesn't mean it's not successful. Minecraft started out as an indie game. Look at Starbound. It's an indie game, and it's made over $15 million. As for successful roguelike games, there are plenty. Here are just a few examples:
The Binding of Isaac: 2 million copies
FTL: 100k copies and named short-form Game of the Year 2012 along with many other awards
Don't Starve: 1 million copies in just one year
Rogue Legacy: 100k copies in one hour. (I can't find an up to date count)

Then there's the notion that there are no mainstream Roguelike games, which is just plain false. First there's the game that inspired the genre: Rogue. Then there's the Diablo series, which has sold over 28.4 million copies.

I looked through the popular tags on Starbound's page, and nowhere in it is the "casual" tag present. In fact, the third tag in the list (behind sandbox and indie) is survival. Call me a space hobo, but in most survival games there's a penalty for dying.[/quote]

 

Uh...Diablo isn't a roguelike. at all. There is no permadeath in diablo unless you play on hardcore. And a roguelike=mandatory permadeath not optional. And also, 'Rogue' is decades old and it's definitely NOT mainstream and I'm pretty sure it never was mainstream even when it was in it's prime. I actually went on a hunt to see if there WERE any mainstream roguelike games before I made that post, so I have to say to say you're the one that's false here. Anyway, I'm not going to hunt and peck and selective quote things so I can try to twist their meanings around like you did either intentionaly or unintentionaly. But regardless of if a roguelike is 'successful' or not, there have been a lot of big type mainstream developers that have admitted it is always going to be a niche market, the vast majority of gamers on the planet do not like permadeath. Now, if they have access to crap tons of money to do huge market surveys to see what is or is not suitable, and what people would like or dislike, I'm not going to argue with them. If roguelike was as popular as you try to make it sound out to be, there would be at least one mainstream roguelike series. There isn't. So, it may be successful for a niche market, it would flop if it was made a mainstream thing. This isn't a matter of personal tastes or to say if roguelike is or is not a good or bad thing. Some people are going to like it, some aren't. But the fact is, numbers don't lie. The majority would not like it. Anyway, considering your responses, I don't think you really read many of the reasons why ore drops are bad, and REALLY dug into the main underlying reasons why people are dissatisfied with the way the game is going (There's a lot more than JUST ore drops that have people up in arms, that's just one of the big ones), so, I think I'm ending this discussion with a simple statement, "We'll have to agree to disagree"

 

I'd just like to mention that the "main stream big market developers" have been recently reeling from making bad decisions in what the "mainstream" want in their video games. Also, it has been noted many times that focus groups and market surveys are often wrong, especially when asking about something that people have never had before. People don't actually know what they want before they have it. I'm not seeing many real mechanical differences between Minecraft, Terraria, and Starbound yet. I mean, yeah there is variation, and two of them don't have creative mode, but I'm not seeing the reason for any major dissatisfaction aside from the fact this game is taking forever.

Also, I think we can all call Candy Crush a casual game, and it has a fail state that induces tedium. You have to replay a whole level.

 

There's more than one characteristic of roguelike games. Just because permadeath isn't mandatory, doesn't mean it's not a roguelike game. Many roguelikes have the option to take out permanent death since, as you stated, a lot of people dislike it. There are many other traits of this type of game that Diablo has, such as:
-Random generation
-Grid based
-Resource management
-Use of tactics
-Killing large amounts of enemies
-Dungeons
-Exploration of said dungeons
Just because it doesn't fit into one narrow description doesn't mean it's not roguelike. According to these descriptions, Diablo matches a pretty good amount of the requisites to be considered roguelike.

As far as Rogue is concerned, it was named #6 on the "Ten Greatest PC Games Ever" list by PC World. I know that list isn't necessarily definitive, but at least one major publication seems to think it was pretty good.

As for the 'hunting and pecking and selective quoting', I replied to your entire message, not only parts. I just broke it up into sections to make it easier to follow. The only part of your argument I didn't reply to was 'Also, 'success of roguelike games'?', which was a quote of me. So unless you were using some really deep metaphors that were over way my head, I don't think it was possible to misconstrue your meaning.

But like I said, I'm sure if you keep complaining loud enough Chucklefish will make ore drops an option, which they were probably going to do anyway. Like it says on the Early Access page, games in beta are subject to change, and it's likely that it will.

 

removing development that was intended to round out the game experience and make the world feel more challenging (as a sandbox survival game should) is absolutely a creative mode. A mode to which you are offered a very narrow and shallow set of challenges (since they wouldn't be really considered risks anymore... barely challenges really even) again is a creative game experience. and I wasn't being critical or combative, you took the reigns there. Your playstyle is that of a creative mode player as you describe it. As I said before I'm sure it will happen that a creative mode will be available upon release or at least one from modders to patch in that offers the least amount of resistance without actually making you invincible though creative doesn't have to mean that. and as a note yes, i'm sure one of the reasons that they have ore drop is because of the problem with blood port... but again that is intended design.[DOUBLEPOST=1416428578][/DOUBLEPOST]

being able to make a 'field teleporter' is something ive wanted to see for a long time... if not int he base game then from a modder.[DOUBLEPOST=1416430128][/DOUBLEPOST]

The progress stating it was almost finished was in reference to having all of the intended features implemented... not finished. And since then they have tried their best to add or change features that the community wanted, which many developers won't do. With an office change and relocation for staff including their planned changes and refining of current features, as well as development of all the stretch goals they met in the kick starter... I would say that this is simple confusion of the process. This is why companies refrain from being a part of their communities, this exact reaction. 80% means almost done... but that last 20% can take just as long as the development current total, time and completion of a checklist are very very different.

 

Glad you quoted me. Someone made a field teleporter mod you can use to zip zop zoobity bop around a planet with. Was trying to find the thread.

Beauty of the modding community and this game is that if a mod is REALLY good, it can just be added in to the main game with the mod creator's permission.

 

Intended to round out the game experience? Proof please. From what I've seen it was intended to punish people who used suicide to get out of the ground. And not a challenge? Dude, you're so far detached from what 'challenge' is it's almost humorous. Penalty for death does not equal challenge. That adds time required to hike back to get your crap, not 'challenge' to the game. That adds tedious boring trips without a map, to try to find where you died. Which adds nothing to the game experience other than frustration and boredom. Challenge is a hurdle to overcome. Challenge is overpowering adversity. That big boss monster you just ran into that is attacking you with charge attacks and projectiles when all you have is the crappy starter sword, is the same challenge if you drop ores when you die, or if you don't drop ores when you die. Having to go find iron that you desperately need that's buried deep underground and since you don't have x-ray vision and can't see through rocks, (In creative mode this isn't the case I don't think though!) is just as challenging if I fell into a pit and died and lost my ore, or didn't lose my ore. You are mistaking 'challenge' with 'pointless unwanted punishment.' In creative mode, both in minecraft, and the creative mode on here, you can spawn in anything you want, can become invincible, and don't have to worry about fighting at all. Wanting to have to actually defend yourself, and hunt for resources, hunt for materials, hunt for weapons... This is not creative mode. Creative mode is where everything is handed to you and you don't have to even put any effort into getting them.

 

I see I left a typo in my message. But yeah, I believe that was the reason given. Like you said it seems they are trying to give caves an oppressive feel. Sometimes looking at stuff like tools and the ore drop (and like of home teleport) they seem to be going for a more unforgiving Minecraft-like difficulty approach oddly.

A magic mirror item would be nice given the feedback (and the fact again most SB players are Terraria players who liked the magic mirror teleporting you back to your base so you could explore more rather then Minecraft's find your own way home approach).