December 5th - You must find balance!

Discussion in 'Dev Blog' started by Armagon, Dec 6, 2014.

  1. CaptThad

    CaptThad Pangalactic Porcupine


    You couldn't maintain ranged combat indefinitely before this system was implemented. Have no clue what version of the game people were playing before to support high energy consumption play styles, but in my experience with the last month or so of nightlies, you might get through a fight on a high-tier planet before you were drained. Then you're boned for ranged combat and tech use altogether. At higher levels, the consumption for any usage of energy was massively higher than the regeneration.

    What this system changes is that you'll be able to re-engage oh so very much faster. They've added a small tick between every few shots in exchange for a relatively ridiculously increased long-term supply. So long as you don't 'overheat', waiting for a couple seconds before the regen is going to grant you more energy overall than the previous system--by a rather large margin. The fixed regen rates were never high enough, and most cases that amount of time might be worth a single extra shot or boosted jump. It's a hard argument to say that zoning gameplay requiring a touch more zoning to be effective is a bad thing, when the overall effect is a huge increase in capability. This actually rewards better zoning tactics with a giant increase in power (what, skill-based gameplay?). People wanting to play permadeath should have no problem with a little extra zoning.

    I'll take the occasional two or three seconds of kiting to maintain a reasonable supply over only being able to fight every few minutes. I've spent enough hours in this game running around continuously burning my one pip of energy the instant it appears just to get by a little faster.

    The trade-off between melee and ranged is the ability to deal damage without taking damage, and the higher rate of fire. If you're hitting 30 times a second, a 2 second reload every 5 or 6 seconds is still going to be hitting faster than a sword doing 1-2 hits per second continuously. Reload gaps are just balance. There's no reason to expect ranged weapons to fire indefinitely.

    We haven't even seen the staffs yet, and how their cost:dmg will play.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
    Colaymorak, Mystify and M_Sipher like this.
  2. pi master

    pi master Void-Bound Voyager

    I'd like to see strong sniper rifles that allow you to aim far away. As you get better and better rifles, they can shoot farther. The player can choose whether to get much stronger and slightly faster ones or much faster and slightly stronger ones. I always love when games have tech trees. I'd love if there was a huge temple-like place that is your tech tree, and you can traverse it and even build in it. Each section could be a room where you have to dump a type of energy source in until the lights turn on and machinery kicks in to build something (like a stronger rifle) and opens the next door. At the end of each "branch" could be a "leaf" that will lock a corresponding "leaf" for example, the fast rifle leaf will lock the strong rifle leaf and vice versa. Each leaf will present you with the best form of the item you have been upgrading along the branch. Once the player unlocks the maximum amount of leafs possible, the ground shakes violently and cracks appear at the end of each leaf. After breaking through a crack, the player will find hidden rooms past the leaf, left in ruin. These places will be known as the "experimental branch" abandoned because the things they granted either did not work properly or were too powerful. These will work the same as other branches giving a random chance for each earned item to brake upon earning it. Only the truly final leaf will give a guaranteed working item. Once every possible true final leaf is unlocked, the player can use this item to break into the corresponding locked leaf and continue until every item is gained (using the ultimate fast rifle to break into the strong rifle leaf and vice versa). When every item is gained, the ancient alien race that created the temple is alerted and comes after a certain time elapses. This could end in many ways. They could come peacefully and grant an item or ability, or they could come as a boss fight and grant you with their ship when defeated. The player will then find their civilization and may or may not be greeted with greater technology that will make the ultimate weapons look like napkins and twigs.
     
    Higuera likes this.
  3. Type1Ninja

    Type1Ninja Hard-To-Destroy Reptile

    This is a surprisingly good idea. :iswydt:
     
  4. Pinchy

    Pinchy Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Nice JoJ.
     
  5. blobjim

    blobjim Subatomic Cosmonaut

    I don't like the idea of having tiers in Starbound. Isn't it kind of pointless to have tiers that increase enemy health if you're just going to increase gun damage too? For example: Current weapon damage: 10, Current enemy health: 20, Next Tier weapon damage: 20, Next Tier Enemy Health: 40. Takes two shots both times. See what I mean? Tiers are only restricting and annoying. They don't make the game feel different, they just make you angry.
     
    Jonesy likes this.
  6. Wra17h

    Wra17h Subatomic Cosmonaut

  7. CaptThad

    CaptThad Pangalactic Porcupine

    In current stable's fixed tier system with the universe all subdivided by difficulty, it wasn't much fun. Kinda just worked out to more of the same, like you said. Not really a point to it.

    The planet tiers are going to be all mixed in the next stable though (difficulty tied to ease of survivability on a particular biome), so you can think of upgrades as expanding your options. You'll still wind up visiting planets below your level (there will actually be reason to, for biome specific stuff), but you're also able to visit planets above your equip level. You'll actually feel the difference in efficiency. As it gets easier and easier to do that higher level stuff, you'll appreciate the upgrades.

    heh The lower level stuff that used to give you trouble start becoming more like bugs impacting on a windshield as you drive down the interstate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
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  8. Kelthazan

    Kelthazan Pangalactic Porcupine

    Hmmm, I like this. Seems more difficult, but I like the idea of having to actually pay attention and manage your energy pool. I'm sure there could be rare accessories that might help or even negate the lock... Maybe a Battery Backpack that kicks in as soon as you run out, refilling your energy while depleting it's own?
     
  9. Hyeroshi

    Hyeroshi Subatomic Cosmonaut

    I like the new change, but I do have an issue with the energy locking. At later stages in the game you can use stuff like butterfly boost to make traversing areas really easy, while simultaneously timing the current regen to have a nearly infinite supply of energy given you're wearing very endgame armor. With the update in tow, this could possibly negate endgame players to use techs for more than just a few seconds.

    Could their possibly be any implementation to make it so certain techs get any sort of benefits from being paired with certain tier armors? Giving techs a tier level with benefits increasing if the armor is a tier higher than the tech could work.
     
  10. Titanium

    Titanium Existential Complex

     
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  11. boxofcuriosity

    boxofcuriosity Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    It seems in the nightlies that tech doesn't use energy, only guns.
     
  12. Maxiplayer

    Maxiplayer Subatomic Cosmonaut

    [​IMG]
    A simple change, but it make the game from AWESOME became ULTIMATE BADASS AMAZING
     
  13. Idunyken

    Idunyken Astral Cartographer

    In the dev post clip, it does though.
     
  14. Efimero

    Efimero Aquatic Astronaut

    It would be nice to have the bows cost a bit less energy than they currently do, at least the first tiers. It's hard enough to aim as it is now to have it do only five or six shots at once. If I can do 10 full shots with an iron bow without stopping, that would be reasonable.

    Also, the Starbound Survival Guide is very out of date, now. It still mentions stone tools and such. =P
    Please, revise it. <3
     
  15. Kawa

    Kawa Tiy's Beard

    Considering the controls codex was updated just the night before, I'm sure they'll get around to the survival guide.
     
  16. Efimero

    Efimero Aquatic Astronaut

    I'm sure of it, but it's never out of the question to leave a reminder when you find something like that, is it? I didn't see anyone mentioning it either. =3
     
  17. MithranArkanere

    MithranArkanere Space Kumquat

    I've seen that done on many games. For example, the Alien Guns in Saints Row IV and Borderlands 1. Quick regeneration but 'overheat' when mindlessly spamming works much better, because makes ranged combat more about aiming and making every hit count.

    Still, sometimes you need 'spray and pray' kind of weapons that you fire "till it goes click" to have cover fire without aiming, so energy must be adjusted so that is still possible with at least some weapon-armor combinations.
     
  18. Mystify

    Mystify Void-Bound Voyager

    If all you have is a stat treadmill, then yes, it ends up being pointless. However, in combination with other game aspects, the stat progression means that different tiers of enemies/weapons are clearly distinct and there is a strong progression, and then things within those tiers can act to distinguish the gameplay. For instance, adding on more/varied effects, so as you go through tiers the variety of effects is continuously increasing. It is hard to make the progression function solely on such things, as making things /feel/ different based on them is a lot easier than making the power curve rely on them. And once you get many effects going on weapons, comparing whether this hogepog of effects is stronger than that one is challenging.
    The stat progression can also play into fixed-cost things. For instance, the techs. If you find a tech you like, progressing in raw stats will let you use it more.
     
  19. RoniniLJ

    RoniniLJ Yeah, You!

    Considering all things remain as they are (which is by no means a given), would a buff (item/food) that gives you instant/constant energy recharge help to keep those strategies you mentioned viable?
     
  20. Katadeus

    Katadeus Void-Bound Voyager

    So just to make sure, since these changes detract from the effectiveness of guns, are there plans to make certain tweaks to bring them back to roughly the same level of effectiveness, or is this meant to de-emphasize ranged combat? Is the energy-focused armor going to be enough to bring them back to what they were?
    I'm somewhat sick of hearing people complain about how this change is going to ruin the game.
    I personally won't mind guns being nerfed as I don't use them consistently, but I know others do.
     

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