So with the upcoming revamp for Armor Penetration, Planet Threat and Monster levels I asked myself: Why stop there? Right now for HP and Damage we have an outdated system in place that promotes values spiraling higher and higher and thus giving a false sense of progression. So why not actual progression instead? Why not use a better system? The Problem What is the difference between a level 1 and a level 40 planet? Or a level 1 and a level 40 dagger? What makes the level 40 dagger better, stronger even? Simply put: an artificial number. What's the problem with these artificial numbers? Naturally they're not real. There's no actual difference between them. It's just an arbitrary rule to fake progression and to limit access to the games content. Basically it does not matter if you're on a level 1 planet fighting a monster or doing the same on a level 40 planet. It usually is just yet another "0" in HP and Damage values - or in Starbound a higher armor penetration value (so far). This is problematic in three ways: Firstly, the false sense of progression it creates leads many people to believe the game is dumbed down with the upcoming patch, which frankly it isn't. Secondly, it kills all incentive to visit lower level planets and sectors, because the gear you will find there is useless, and enemies are one-shots. Thirdly, one-shotting enemies - or getting one-shot is possible. And for most of the players that is very annoying. So what's the goal with the proposed revamp? Giving an incentive to visit "lower level" planets while maintaining depth and giving an actual sense of progression. The Solution Simply put: remove the arbitrary health, damage and level values. Let me elaborate. The New Health System Imagine having only 5hp. Since people do not like low values, let's make them 5 hearts that are visualized on your Hud. Getting hit by a mob means you are going to lose a heart. No attack and no mob in the game will ever remove more than one heart with a single attack. DoTs are also possible. They would make one of your hearts blinking for x seconds and - if not cured in time - you will lose that heart. In turn healing items and such will also be available. The same of course goes for mobs. The New Mob System To increase difficulty for mobs there is also a little revamp necessary. Beyond the common "high level monster has more hp and deals more damage" there are other ways to increase the difficulty. Unpenetratable areas - The mob has body parts that cannot be damaged; or can only be damaged with a special kind of weapon (e.g. blunt weapons to break shells / shields) Movement Patterns - The mob will move in a special pattern to try and avoid getting hit, or to block the attack with it's shell / shield Skills - Mobs have different skills. Right now there are several ranged attacks as well as "charge" and "body slam" implemented. This could be expanded Attack Patterns - In conjunction with the different skills, mobs need attack patterns which telegraph the imminent attack to the player Skill variations - The existing skills could be made stronger by for example adding more projectiles, speed, range, ... The New Gear System The gear in Starbound right now has other purposes beside just the armor value. There's a value for blocking off low temperatures as well as energy. To compensate for the missing armor value and still giving a sense of progression, gear would receive special abilities, similar to techs. Since those abilities are basically just a matter of how much imagination you have, here are a few examples: Enery shield - Your gear absorbs x hits before you can actually get hit. The gear recharges within y seconds of not being hit Invlunerability - You are invulnerable for a short time after being hit Reflect Damage Stun on Hit Knockback on Hit ... The New Weapon System Since weapons are basically stripped of all damage values, they need other mechanics to compensate. There are several ways to achieve this. Some of them are already in place like attack speed, range and hit arc. They could additionally be divided into different categories: Blunt weapons to break shells / shields Stabbing weapons to bleed (DoT) enemies Knockback weapons Stunning weapons Projectile weapons (bouncing, splitting up, homing, penetrating, ...) ... In addition to this, ranged weapons could receive special projectile arcs / flight paths to easier hit enemies at their weak spots (just imagine a boomerang to hit your enemy from behind while standing in front of them). Once again, imagination is the only limiting factor. It would also be an incentive to use a wider range of weapons. The New Planet System So now that there are no level, hp and damage values how should a planet be classified? What are the factors? Temperature Gravity (Higher gravity -> harder movement) Mob aggressivity - Mobs on a planet could be rather passive or aggressive. An easier planet would have like 20% aggressive mobs, while a harder one could have up to 100% Mob hordes - Mobs might run around in groups and attack together when attacked Mob density - It's harder to survive on a planet with lots of aggressive mobs, isn't it? Mob skill variations (see above) In turn more difficult planets would yield more resources and / or items with better or more special abilities. The Sector System The Sector System could stay in place like it is. Right now if you unlock a new sector it usually comes with new materials, unlocking new gear and items. Higher quality gear could increase the special abilities of a weapon or armor piece (e.g. copper armor energy shield blocks 1 hit, platinum blocks 2 and so on). This would also maintain the sense of progression while being actual progression. tl;dr - The Conclusion The proposed changes would replace the shallow level 1-100 fake progression with an actual progression that rewards the player with more abilities as he progresses, while increasing the mob difficulty via better ai and more complex attacks and attack patterns (instead of more health / damage) as well as giving an incentive to players to still visit "lower level" planets (e.g. planets in older sectors). On a personal note: I know that these are quite some major changes, but I think they would greatly improve the game. If the game wasn't so beautifully done and had a huge sandbox part I probably would have stopped playing already, since the games combat becomes rather dull after a short period of time. You quickly reach the point where you keep doing the same and the only thing that changes is the level number.
Id love for all of these changes to be put into the game, because, as you said, the combat gets boring (or atleast repetetive) rather fast. I also think that adding another way for them to make the game difficult except for making higher-leveled enemies damage-sponges and one-hitting death machines (or the other way around if you visit a low-tier planet). Problem is, if all weapons deal the same amount of damage, you might aswell stick with your beginning sword and never touch another weapon (except for purely cosmetic flavor). I wouldnt have a problem with this myself, seeing as that is how weapons work in the real wordl (a spear trough the throat will kill you as much as a dagger will.), as long as there were some differences between the weapon classes. One way could be to differentiate the weapons more. An smg could have a high fire rate, but much larger spread than say, a pistol, and a sniper would have longer range but very slow fire-rate and so on. If well implemented, the combat could become very addictive, and allow you to use whatever weapons you liked, just because you think they look cool instead of switching out your awesome katana for a burning stick just because it is a higher tier. Anyways, really good ideas/suggestions. Hopefully the devs will take a close look and implement it, the faster the better.
I think we should wait and see what the upcoming revamp looks like before suggestion additional revamps. Part of the advantage of a beta test is that we can actually show them how it works in play.
True. But I just needed to get my ideas out into the world or they would have kept me awake over night.
I don't think so, read the part about "The New Weapon System" again. Imagine a new enemy type using a heavy armor. Your beginning sword won't penetrate his armor because you need a "special" weapon type (e.g. blunt weapon). You would need different weapons with diffent attributes and abilities for different mobs That idea even promotes teamplay with different "classes" (based on weapon choice) where every party member has another mob type he's strong against.
These are some good suggestions. Of course, it may not prove perfect in practice, but this is the point of the beta. If the combat can be nailed down as early on as possible, it will make for a much better game. I do love the idea of different armour effects, though. It really spices things up and makes it more exciting, because as of now, all armour is the same.
Absolutely right! I just thought about: What if I find and use a heavy armor myself? Some enemies couldn't hurt me anymore but maybe I will get a deficit in jump height and movement speed? The possibilities are endless.
It would also open up possibilities for different play styles. For instance, an armour that damages enemies in some way (damage when attacked, flame aura, explosion when energy shield is depleted) would encourage a more reckless, melee focused style of fighting. There's no point having those effects if you're going to sit back and shoot. Alternatively, armour which increased energy regeneration and possible gave an increase to camera panning would be ideal for a ranged style of fighting.
Im all for the implementation of differenct classes/playstyles. Im going to play my human as a trader/smuggler/whatevs, using only my trusty blaster-pistol, throwing knives and some light-armor. This would be impossible with the current system, unless i stuck to the tier-1 planets. (seeing as player guns suck at the moment)
Some great suggestions here. I would go as far as to say as the implementation of a system like this is a near-necessity. The grindyness of the current system is entirely immersion breaking. Why should one planet have only creatures as dangerous as mice and another have only creatures as deadly as dinosaurs? Why should gold be way stronger than iron? I don't want to always know what creatures or minerals to expect when I go down to a planet. I hope the devs consider your proposal in a big way.
Indeed it is very needed. I This system would allow you to use the weapons and gear you like (being a sandbox and all) , instead of only the highest tiered but really fugly looking gear and weapons, letting us tailor our characters they we want, instead of having to make them one specific way to be able to carry about our business. (I hope this made sense...)
Very nice post! I'm not a huge fan of the combat as of now, but these suggestions could really spice it up. It really does feel like the same old blah the higher I get. The only difference as I get into higher difficulties is: I have more useless planets than before that I will never visit now. Also, the mobs need more behavior and personality. They are just moneybags at the moment and I just rampage through them with ease because the AI is so dumb and predictable. If they one-shot me or are too difficult then I resort to the wall method where I quickly cover them in dirt and melee them through it safely. The cheese method of game-ruining.
I'm not going to say all these changes are great ideas and this sort of system should be adopted. Being able to see concrete ways that you've made progress is still somewhat important. Being totally outgunned and needing to work hard in order to match your opponent and the satisfaction of finally becoming strong enough to do so is good. But I am really, really worried that this game is going to go far too strong on linear progression. Linear progression, while useful when used carefully, is really the problem in a game like Terraria, and this game too, when it is the focus. Though it might seem more simple, adding a few new mechanics and a little bit of complexity, within reason, can really, really enable a player to play their own style, and adds a lot of value and replayability trying new things. ALLOWING people to also surmount an obstacle using tactics, cunning, and particularly effective strategies for certain circumstances is also really important and even more satisfying. And right now the game does not have enough mechanics to really allow the player to do this. Even terraria made me choose between melee vs range vs magic! Starbound seems to offer nothing like this yet. What I am saying is, right now, I feel that there is no way I can play differently from my friends I am playing with. The total of my choices of how to play the game is whether or not I want to play with a 1H weapon and a shield, or a 2H weapon, or dual wield. And that's it. There are not even enough effective range weapons in the game to make that a viable option, at least not at the tier I am at yet (late beta sector). I mean I LOVE the inclusion of dual wielding and shields in the game! It is genius. But, as far as how to play the game right now, mostly the only thing anyone needs to be concerned with is just raw, pure linear progression, build better things, replace things that get obsoleted. And that's how you become successful at the game. Sure there's some skill but the skillset is not remotely -diverse-. And the suggestions laid out here, a number of them, can help diversify that skillset and make the game more fun to play, and make it feel like I am actually learning and getting better at the game, rather than just upgrading my weapons. I understand the appeal of keeping a game simple but Starbound right now is too simple. Force a player to make choices and create strategies and make sacrifices in order to be better at one thing that they thing they're good at or is fun for them to do. The game is really, really bad at making the players make those choices right now. Right now I feel there is very little diversity in how people approach the game, and that's bad, and will make the game bland and boring, frankly. And that would be really sad, considering it has so many other things going for it. Thanks.
That is a lucid, detailed, well-said suggestion. I sincerely hope this gets noticed, as those ideas would be incredible. As of now it feels like Terraria with more materials, which I was expecting a degree of anyway, but as you said giving effects to armour, making monsters more interesting (I'm thinking Monster Hunter style; size variation, aggression, indestructible parts, weaknesses, as you said really!), and making the combat more involved will make the game as incredible as I imagined it when I started following it in Feb 2012!
-This encourages a stat-focused grind, which is markedly unpleasant in several respects. If I were focused on abilities instead of imaginary numbers, I would feel much more engaged in the game as a character, trying to perfect a style of fighting or set of abilities that would make me feel much more personalized as an individual within the game. -I agree that this would be a useful system, given that it would particularly be useful in removing the rush to the highest tier planet available for the sole purpose of getting equipment to breese through the rest of the tier. This should not be a workable plan. By causing the system to be based off of hits, not specifically damage numbers, this best-stat rush would be removed. However, this would put a great deal of stress on the versatility of the tools made available to the player. THis, in turn, would mean one would want these items to be useful against opponents, not just a shiny thing to have, meaning mobs will need better attack patterns, some invulnerable points, etc. Otherwise we're left with the same bonk-it-on-the-head-and-move-on or -get-touched-and-die-instantly tactics we currently have. -While I typically prefer giving a more lengthy and detailed response, I admit these bullets fairly summarize the monster changes that would be particularly useful. This would make the random generation actually meaningful, as right now it's just an infinite progression of funny shaped things we poke with a stick. The same set of small tactics work on virtually every enemy you meet, with no real sense of true opponent variety. You begin to disregard what they look like entirely, and just note: Does it shoot me, fly, rush, or is it peaceful? If it shoots, wall it in. Then stab it. If it flies, shoot it. If rushes, stab it repeatedly as it runs into your sword repeatedly. If it's peaceful, stab it anyway for money. -I too agree with this. Your suggest modifications to opponent abilities, thus requiring a broader range of player tactics, would be a minor step to improve this. However, augmenting it by making hits more meaningful through the damage system change would then combine for a significant upgrade to the system. Finishing it off with a large increase to player abilities would be the finishing touch, allowing for much more dynamic combat that what is, unfortunately, somewhat boring right now whenit comes to combat.
Thanks for the feedback guys, I appreciate it. If properly implemented my approach would still probably show you how much progress you have made. Also being outgunned is possible. But instead of mere numbers being the differentiating factor, I would like it to be skill and experience. Imagine you encounter a mob on a very hard planet that shoots 3 huge fireballs 3 times in a row killing you. You leave the planet, gather some gear and gain some experience and try again. But this time you have an energy shield, blocking hits for you. Or an actual shield to block the hits. Or you make use of the short invulnerability after being hit (given you have acquired any of these special abilities). So you block its hits, or outrun them or whatever and then notice that after its 3 x 3 attack it stops attacking and slowly retreats. And then you get it. That's your opening, your possibility to strike. You have figured out its attack pattern (still a very simple one, but that's for the sake of the argument). But you need to hurry before it recovers and starts attacking again. And so by figuring out its attack pattern und making use of your new abilities you're able to overcome this foe. For me personally it is much more satisfying when overcoming an obstacle is achieved by skill and not by some arbitrary numbers that magically make your weapon and armor stronger. Though I know there are a lot of people out there who actually like it when the difference lies only in growing numbers. Anyways I agree that the game is going far too strong on linear progression, something definetly needs to be done.
Hmmm, I kind of like this! Almost feels a bit Monster Hunter-esque, given that different gear will be more effective against different enemies but will never really be useless, so long as it's been upgraded enough to be up to snuff. Even so, your beginning/early gear still shouldn't be very good against anything past the first planet or so, otherwise you could theoretically go through the entire game with it with little incentive to search for other stuff. On the flip side, I'm not entirely sure how much I like the idea of "requiring" a certain weapon type to kill an enemy. Having items with certain traits should be more effective against certain enemies, but equally it should at least be possible to kill enemies with most weapon types, even if it is just a little bit more difficult. This will allow people to hone their preferred weapon type. A healthy balance between a certain degree of "forced" equipment progression (think "I need some materials to upgrade my pistol before it will even make a dent in that turtle shell"), rewarding consistent use of a particular weapon type and making every weapon type equally effective in its own way is what I think is needed.
I like your suggestion. WIth this new weapon system we could get some new skills, like thrust attacks, stabbing, etc.
