Your pick-axe hate is misguided: DRILLS are the enemy.

Most settlements I've been to have all sorts of traders, who are more than eager to strike a deal with you. And if not, there are at least a few crates lying around just begging you to free the NPC owners of their possessions. Whatever the means, access to other peoples' resources common - the trick is being able to get to those people.

You're correct that it's rather silly about the navigation chip leading to being able to craft steel armor - that discussion is for another thread though.

You've said several times that I'm displaying a double standard... on what, specifically? The starting MM is slow - that's all there is to it. Again, we don't know why - broken? low on batteries? maybe it's a janitorial MM designed to clean up messes on the ship it was found it? All we know is that THAT SPECIFIC MM does a poor job of mining relative to a pickaxe (much like a hair drier would make a poor weapon against a squirrel - BUT if you actually managed to hit a squirrel with one, it'd still kill it ...damn that's a weird analogy). Anyway, once you get the tech you need, you can rewire it, give it a new battery, optimize it for mining instead of picking up dust bunnies, clean the beer out of it, ETC. Suddenly, it mines beautifully, so you promptly fire the pickaxe into the sun, as the situation no longer calls for it. (you convert the hairdrier into some kind of ray gun, and can now not only kill, but instantly cook squirrels just by pointing at them, so you ditch the pointed stick).

*I'd like to note that I'm not suggesting any in-game functionality progression steps be skipped; the "Steel MM" would mine just as effectively as the "silver pickaxe", or whichever current-game tier aligns with whichever MM if drills were actually scrapped and MM's added in their place. Performance would be the same, as a GAME MECHANIC. The difference would only be skin (MM vs pick/drill), name, and most importantly, the style (sci-fi).

*I'd also like to add that the focus here isn't on using the MM, but on NOT using the drill. The MM is simply an obvious choice as a sci-fi mining tool; the Mining Laser is an equally sci-fi tool, and if that's the drill replacer that folks prefer, that's 100% okay with me. If there's something other than MM or mining laser that fits the sci-fi feel of the game, that'd be fine too, just not those friggin' drills!

 

I'd like to place emphasis on the "over our heads" part of that last post. I have no clue what the ships could be doing to the coal. There's gotta be more to it than just mass (or as you said, any matter would work), but I'm reasonably sure it's not a steam engine or anything like that.

Anywho, back to the mining talk...



(+1 on the AA battery thing, though! )

 

I'm liking the suggestion, although I don't necessarily hate drills. A bit off topic but I feel the need to voice it, why are we making tools from copper and gold anyways? these are two of the softest metals around, something you can work cold(I guarantee that if you try to mine ores with a real pick-axe made from copper it will bend), and yet we make two impact based tools out of them.

I could see bronze tools, but not copper. And in terms of Matter manipulators, that would be fine.

 

Instead, it should better be that drills are just a part of progression, not final stage.

And yet, I don't see MM replacing Pickaxes, somehow.

 

rather than cutting out the drills entirely, why not make them the mid-tier tools instead of the higher level picks that you pointed out were dumb, and make the high-tier tools something particle based like a plasma cutter or laser drill, or something with a name a smidge more imaginative than i feel at the moment, something that fits the setting. for those you would need metals like gold and platinum not for any physical cutting surface but for printing the circuits that make them go, and the special made up metals as a power source.

similarly, the other tools should all have 'power tool' middle tiers, including mechanical multi-tools, (instead of a damn fish) and scifi-ish energy tools at the high tiers, including finally being able to build new manipulators.

 

I'm fine with mid-tier stuff, but something other than drills would make more sense. Drills don't fit in any tier of a sci-fi progression (see my exchange with Fromage for details on why). If it went from pick axe --> mining laser --> MM, that would be fine; or pick --> MM --> Mining Mech.

/shrug

Just. Not. Drills.

 

I see your point.

 

It's not just weird, as I said previously, it's not apt. The MM is just slightly slower, it's not completely inappropriate for the job.

We actually DO know what's making the MM slow...the devs have chosen for it to be slow. They've done this, I think it's fair to say, so that we will be encouraged to use things like pick axes and drills. They could easily change that situation if they wanted to.

The double standard I refer to, is that we have three tools here: one, the MM is super-high tech, while the pickaxe is very low tech, and the drill is modern but compared to the MM, low tech. Now, BOTH the drill and the Pickaxe can be replaced by the MM. The MM does not NEED to be upgraded to do this either, it's just more convenient to use the pick or drill.

Somehow to you this means that the pick is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL, and the drill is dumb and boring and not scifi.

I just saw you respond to a poster suggesting that mining lasers are ok, but not drills...I'm seriously having to come to the conclusion that you and drills just have some sort of rough past.

Clearly you had much more luck finding villages than I have, but I can certainly say that the ones that I've found have all been medieval tech at best. The few high-tech people I've seen have tried to kill me. They certainly haven't seemed willing to teach me anything, and rummaging around their things after I kill them has not proved illuminating either. If a caveman ransacked your house, he'd hardly be able to build your refrigerator afterwards.

Ultimately, while I am fully in favor of adding a system whereby you can learn to make more advanced tools from other people, even if that was introduced you'd actually have to find them and convince them to teach you...you wouldn't just gain the knowledge from being around them.

 

*rolls eyes* Yes, yes, it all comes down to 0's and 1's at the end of the day, but I'd expect you to understand the difference between gameplay mechanics and lore. Furthermore, I'd expect you'd be able to realize that this discussion is not about gameplay mechanics, but about lore. Things that matter in this discussion are the story, the setting, the style, what's going on in your character's head... Things that do NOT matter to this discussion are code, servers, RL computers...

Dude, the reasoning is in the OP, and has been stated several times since...

The pickaxe is a crude tool created out of desperation in light of there being no other option.

The drill, in a sci-fi setting, is the mining equivalent to an eight-track player: it's outdated, and no one current with the times uses it, because there are far better options.

The MM / Mining Laser is a high-tech device appropriate for a sci-fi setting, and if available, is the tool anyone from that time would use.

If the only resource you have access to are trees, rocks, and other crude materials plucked straight out of nature, and you need to DIG THROUGH ROCKS, you're going to make a pickaxe. If doing so allows you to get back in touch with current (sci-fi) technology, you're going to ditch the crude and go straight to what's current: the MM / Laser. You are NOT going to start retracing the steps of your ancestors and make technological advancements as they did.

What part of ^that are you struggling with? What part of ^that contains a double standard?

Lasers are the norm in Sci-Fi media... why would I have an issue with those? I'm seriously having to come to the conclusion that you just REALLY like to argue, and you're going to do so regardless of how much logic is thrown at you.

There are all sorts of ways you might obtain tech. Purchase and looting have been aptly covered; maybe you got within range of someone's WiFi signal, and downloaded it from Space-Google - it doesn't matter. The point is that being mobile to the extent of being able to move from one galaxy to the next in a few seconds, in a universe filled with sci-fi tech, is one way or another, going to give you access to sci-fi tech.

Keep in mind that we're talking about a power tool. Not some kind of top-secret weapon of mass destruction that you'd need to infiltrate a military compound to acquire. The kind of tool that, if you own a low-end variant of, you might store in the junk-drawer of your ship, next to a handful of seeds, some flamable sticks, and a flashlight. Oh wait, that's exactly what happens in game.

Not sure what you're getting at with the caveman thing. Our characters are not cavemen relative to cultures current with the times - our characters can pilot a FTL spacecraft, and when passing through a friendly village, are hailed as a celebrity-like figure, with NPC's popping quotes like "You're so lucky to be able to go out into the stars!" and "Tell me stories about space!". If anyone is going to be able to understand the tech of the times, it's our characters.


Now please, if nothing else, focus your response on my second block of text in this post - that is where our disagreement appears to reside, so that's what we should be talking about.

 

I would think that the pickaxe progression laid out by the OP makes perfect sense. That being said, I would like for drills to remain, but mainly in the end of first sector start of second sector region. I think jury rigging a drill early on could work under the same logic as the pick. (I might not be capable of rigging one together, but my character has an ftl drive, so I assume he's got more talent for this than I do.)

 

I brought up the programing angle, because -you- are making up lore and trying to use it to justify your argument. I could do the same, but instead I tried to point out how fruitless that is.

I'll repost what I've said several times, and try to pare them down to the simplest terms. It may help -you- focus.

The double standard is that either the drill OR the pick can be just as easily replaced by the MM. The MM makes the pickaxe nice to have, but you can get by without. In fact, without the MM, you wouldn't even be able to build your first pickaxe.

You say a pick is making do with what's available to you. The drill is doing just the same, just a bit more advanced. If the game gives you the option of figuring out how to skip them, more power to you! But it just makes sense to leave them in otherwise (especially as resources have already been used to produce them). Since pickaxes can already be used to dig up anything anyway, I advise you to just never build drills, so as to avoid any boredom on your part.

Edit: Oh, and I love to argue! Thanks for being so combative!

 

Eh, thanks.

Go ahead and discuss. I don't want to be a burden.
Its just crazy how many of these threads just turn into giant debates.

 

I do have to admit that Fromage is making some decent points. There is no set lore on the MM right now, so lore doesn't really apply. Whatever they decide to do with it they can make up lore that fits. I really have no problem with drills or mining lasers being kept in, but they just need to reduce the number of subtiers for each type. For example, Stone and Iron Pickaxes could exist for most of the stuff in Sectors 1 and 2. After you get to Steel, you fabricate some basic circuitry and make a Steel Drill (a drill is basically just a power supply attached to a motor after all). That lasts for Sector 3, and you upgrade it to a Diamond Tipped Drill in Sector 4. In Sector 5, you get some better technology and manage to make a Mining Laser out of Platinum and Titanium, with a Glass Lens for focusing the beam. You then upgrade the Laser in Sector 6 to a more powerful version, and then in Sectors 7-10 you start to upgrade the MM.

All that assumes there will be 10 sectors at the end of the game, which is something I heard but cannot confirm to be true. If not then you just scale back the tiers accordingly.

If you manage to find materials or technology ahead of time, then you may be able to skip some steps.

 

False. I cited existing lore in the OP, and have speculated on plausible possibilities since, but I have not just "made up" anything.

I've made no argument suggesting that either pick or drill could be more easily replaced by the MM.

Already addressed that. You're beating squirrels with a hair drier again.

Already addressed that. If sticks and rocks are your only resources, you're not going to craft a drill. A pick, on the other hand, makes sense in that situation.

Gameplay mechanics are not relevant to this discussion. Lore-wise, the only thing you'd be skipping are technological strides already made by long-dead societies, which has already been addressed (making the obsidian spear after returning to modern society)

There's arguing with purpose, and then there's just arguing. You should try the former - it's a lot more productive, and frankly, a lot more entertaining.

 

You keep bringing this up, and it makes it sound like you have no idea what is being discussed. The idea is about adding late-game upgrades to the Matter Manipulator... arguing about how the early-game weak freebie one technically allows you to not use the pickaxes or drills has absolutely nothing to do with this idea, or if it does, then you haven't made the connection even remotely apparent, in which case it would help for you to elaborate instead of just reiterating it.

Yes. However, you end up using (for the setting) low-tech mining solutions for such a very long time... there's, what, twelve different tiers of pickaxes and drills? As Haltus Kain has been pointing out, it just feels out of place to keep using such setting-obsolete tech for such a very long time while you're cruising around the galaxy at faster-than-light speeds... especially so when you go from high-end material pickaxes back down to a copper drill.

Even if it was something like Stone Pickaxe --> Copper/Bronze Pickaxe --> Iron Pickaxe --> Steel Drill --> Diamond-tipped Drill --> Mining Laser, that would be a lot more palatable.

 

There may not be direct lore on the MM, but it does apply in a more broad sense, which is the setting the game is taking place in - Science Fiction. We can only speculate on details; but questions like "should today's drills be a common-use item in an age where tools exist which can lift and wave around thousand+ pound objects like a feather?" rest on the more broad aspects of the lore, and those aspects tell us: No! In the game's setting, drills are ANCIENT technology, and there's no need, even from a progression stand point, to recreate or use them.

Lasers fit the setting just fine - no argument is being made here to remove them.

If drills are to stay in game, then I agree with that assessment; In general, I support more realistic trends in progression (i.e., NOT making a pickaxe out of gold -__-)

 

No, he is saying we should omit the drill entirely. That is what I'm arguing against. I have no issue with your suggested upgrade path. I in fact suggested something very similar myself.

You posited several lore reasons why the MM might be slow. I was trying to make it clear that the reason the MM is slow is mechanical, not born from any lore basis.

...so we can keep drills then? Great, no further argument needed!

More seriously, you have clearly suggested the drill should be removed and be replaced with an upgraded MM. I have shown, I think pretty conclusively, that the pick could be replaced by an upgraded MM just as easily, by using ores gathered (admittedly as it works currently more slowly) with the MM itself. See the myriad posts on the forum for how many people think the pickaxe should be removed entirely.

Now, I don't agree with them, because progressing between different levels of equipment is much more interesting as a mechanic than simply upgrading your handheld doo-hicky to me, and it seems to fit the survival theme better. We really agree about MOST of your original post, man...I even liked it! I just don't agree that, thematically, you can jump automatically straight to your MM. Drills just fit a niche.

Already addressed that. You yourself have pointed out how ridiculous this analogy is. It simply does not track.

Yup. We agree on that, as I've...er...already addressed. Once you have a pick and the materials, the next step is a drill.

Yet again, you make an analogy that does not work. Leaving the first planet is not returning to modern society. You are an outcast, and while you might trade for knowledge among the stars, you aren't simply handed it for showing up.

Clearly many races (and pockets of races) are at differing levels of technology in this galaxy. In such a setting, when digging is so important, to not have drills available seems an odd omission.

I'm well entertained, I assure you, and it takes two to tango, my friend. I have little doubt that the dance will continue.

edit: sorry I lost your trademark green somewhere along the way!

 

Well then I guess it depends on how the sectors are set up. Currently it looks like they are going for each sector having 1 or 2 threat levels (once again, basing that on what I heard about 10 sectors in the final game). I would call that unrealistic as well, and would prefer to be able to find a Threat 10 planet in Sector 1 and a Threat 1 planet in Sector 10. I would say they should make so you can find any level of threat in any sector, but planets are more likely to have a Threat closer to the Sector number.

That way you could potentially be getting high level upgrades in any sector, but you couldn't use them until you advanced through the tech tree via the quest line. It might be a little broken in multiplayer but not any more than right now where someone in the last sector can just drop off the best items and any tech advancement in the game for newbies.

 

I made a suggestion that fixes this problem... drills and pix axes still have there uses but there is the idea up having the mater manipulator, guns, mechs, and amor maybe more be modable.

http://community.playstarbound.com/...modifiable-matter-manipulator-and-more.51957/

So you could switch out componates you make, find or buy to improve the gun.

I espeshaly like the idea of say hitting an sci-fi dungeon and finding in it some legendary mod for the manipulator that say incresses it's range by 50%.

 

i just don't get how a matter manipulator made out of steel is going to be any better than one of copper. If you drop it on accident maybe?