Your pick-axe hate is misguided: DRILLS are the enemy.

9 months old? it can almost drive! ... but starbound isn't exactly the pinnacle of all realism... and frankly... if you want sci-fi... shouldnt be. "energy is energy" well... if that is the logic... wouldnt it take more energy to power something like a high powered mining laser then lets say... a drill?

 

I understand you have a specific preference, and I do not agree nor disagree with it. HOWEVER, I can not stand by while other people's content with THE SIMPLE EXISTENCE OF DRILLS is undermined by someone that thinks differently. I DO NOT LIKE THIS, SO IT SHOULD NOT EXIST is the message I'm getting here

 

Gonna add some numbers for ease of quoting, since we've got it broken down already:

1.) I don't see anything that says the quality of the item is changed, only the price. There was a study done a while ago asking people how much they thought a simple, plain t-shirt would cost; they then asked other people how much an identical t-shirt, but with a "Nike" swoop logo printed on the chest would cost... people guessed dramatically higher values for the one with the Nike swoop on it.

Point is, cost =/= worth.

2.) True, I suppose I should specify that difference between a printed / non-printed item wouldn't be noticeable to the user.

3.) Sounds like a lot of wasted materials... we can speculate on that all day, but that wouldn't really contribute anything to the discussion - let's just agree that it's an 'unknown' for now.

4.) Is that not a sound assumption?

5.) You misunderstand - lore is never 'sacrificed' it's just not always displayed. I mean, we don't have to stop every hour to allow our characters to urinate - does that mean the characters don't do that according to lore? Of course not - hell there are even toilets in game, but the use of them is implied, not showcased. Crafting does the same thing - we don't need to SEE every single step of shaping raw materials into a finished product, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

6.) Not really relevant to this conversation, but I imagine they'll be at least craftable on the game's release. If not, then whatever, that isn't reflective of the capabilities of the crafting tools.

7.) Hey, more insults! That really isn't a substitute for logic/reason. Not sure why the pro-drill crowd keeps depending on those.

8.) There are more developed settlements - just because you haven't found them doesn't mean they aren't there. And their willingness to trade isn't really a factor, since, if trade isn't an option, you can just go in and murder them all, and take what you need by force. ...but again, there are developed settlements willing to trade.

9.) So... require a sensible amount of maintenance.

10.) Combat lasers =/= mining lasers. It's a reasonable assumption that a tool will be rugged and reliable enough to do the job it's made for; this includes portable mining lasers, or any other portable sci-fi mining device.

 

There's a difference between "I DO NOT LIKE THIS, SO IT SHOULD NOT EXIST" and "This doesn't make sense because..."

 

Did I say everything has to be sci-fi? My issue is a specific piece of today's technology, and Starbound isn't in a modern setting.

Glitch as a whole are not reflective of the Glitch YOU control - it is identified as soon as you start a Glitch character as being "one of the few Glitch to attain self-awareness". Your Glitch is the exception, not the rule.

Similarly, a new Floran player-character is identified as being fed up with and rejecting the savage Floran culture, and embracing technology by taking to the stars. Again, the player-character here is the exception, not the rule.

 

How does a drill not make sense exactly? Should I start doing this? Mining lasers are not in use because it is an inefficient way (considering energy) to mine. You see... I think I have a suggestion that would help EVERYBODY. Mining lasers should be more powerful for some reason over drills BUT they will use up the players energy reserves while in use. Fix'd. problem solved... move along now, nothing to see

 

Explained in detail here:
http://community.playstarbound.com/...hate-is-misguided-drills-are-the-enemy.56232/

If you don't understand or don't agree with my logic, describe why in detail, so that I can either clarify what I tried to express, explain why the issue you found is actually a non-issue, or acknowledge that my initial logic was not sound, and alter the suggestion accordingly.

In an environment that we can harness enough energy from a few hundred chunks of coal to power a faster-than-light spacecraft, why do you feel that the difference in energy required to turn a drill vs produce a laser would be a noteworthy factor? In any case, this thread isn't about lasers specifically; it's about the removal of drills and finding a suitable replacement. If you do not feel that mining lasers are a suitable replacement, then fine: there are a lot of other options.

 

If you wish to keep dodging in this manner... I will have to conform to your logic, but in the opposite direction. You see... how could one make a crafting table out of nothing but a few logs? How would you cut those logs... and convert them into metal tools no less to actually accompany the table itself? How does one put a rock on the end of a stick and say "that will surely stay together... yep."

In addition... what is it about drills are you against!? They have been in sci-fi has used drills like.... for ever... if you want to pull the whole "bill gates going from hunting animals to making hotpocket" stuff... you are swimming in conflicts. going from drills to laser beams is like bill gates hunting to conquering the world with his robot army.... if not something as "sci-fi" as laser blasty beamz.... what did you have in mind... One of your suggestions was even "even a sci-fi version of a drill!" which... is REALLY REALLY ODD. Let's replace that stupid drill... with a drill... wow... so much better... in FACT, LETS LET EVERYONE CARRY THIS AROUND INSTEAD

 

I WANT MY FUSION CUTTERS AND GRAVITY GUNS!!!!!

 

I invited you straight up to point out the holes in my logic... if that is "dodging" then that says to me you can't find any.

What does that have to do with drills?

In any case, I'd offer a counter-question of: IS the crafting table made of just a few logs, or is it made PREDOMINATELY out of logs, with other materials being minute enough that the devs didn't feel it would be necessary to showcase those materials by requiring us to gather them? You're hitting on whole gameplay vs lore thing again, and as stated previously, just because something doesn't show up in game, doesn't mean it doesn't happen in lore.

They are modern, not sci-fi, and mining is a huge part of the game, so they are showcased constantly. In a sci-fi game, the things you spend the most time using should be sci-fi things. Today's tech in that setting is ancient tech - it doesn't make sense to be using that, except in really specific situations, like the whole post-apocalyptic planet thing.

So you don't like the bill gates example... fine; let's try something else. You've seen Starwars, yes? Remember this scene?

(Pardon the weird sound)


Let's pretend for a moment that instead of the speeder bikes, that scene used these:

...and I went in on the non-existent LucasArts suggestions forums and said "Yo George, that scene with the dirt bikes... they seem out of place - why not replace them with something a little more sci-fi? Maybe even a SCI-FI DIRT BIKE! Like one that doesn't have wheels, but hovers around instead, like, I dunno, THIS:

...would you have chimed into that forum about how it makes sense to progress from walking on-foot, to traveling on a modern dirt bike from a cultural, technological progression stand point? Or that dirt bikes are perfectly functional technology, so there's no reason to replace them with speeder bikes? Or, A speeder bike would need to use way more energy to keep it off the ground like that, therefore a dirt bike is more practical! Or "let's replace that stupid bike with... a bike... wow, so much better..."

All those arguments against it are moot - the difference, as far as the audience is concerned, is style. One fits the setting, one doesn't. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

Well.. the style thing is only argued by people with DIFFERENT TASTES. Again... they shouldn't remove stuff because a fraction of the community does not like it... they could add in an alternative to it... but in my opinion, and I'm sure I speak for others... drills shall stay.

 

The style was established by the devs when they decided to make a sci-fi game. For the most part, they've done a fine job of sticking to that style, with a few exceptions... drills being one of the most glaring.

The 'fraction of the community' you're referring to happens to be the majority by a pretty large margin - that's what the poll is for. And so far the folks in favor of keeping drills only want it that way on the basis of things like requiring our characters to mimic cultural-level progression, which is ridiculous.

 

I read through your dissertation on the evils of drill-tech and how the Matter Manipulator should be upgraded later on page one.

I only partially agree. From a game standpoint, a drill would seem a waste if you just rush to matter manipulator upgrades from pickaxe.
However, from the standpoint of ease of use and speed, drills should come early enough that the adjust is more logical.
Early tiers for drills would be gear based and hand cranked, not electronics and batteries.
It would from a technological standpoint make things easier and still keep a difficulty to mining ores. Especially when arm-strength in initial pickaxe swing would be wasted when you could just turn a crank and let math and science do the work for you. Current iterations of drills only exist because of more ancient versions of them. Ergo, a diamond drill would be nice if you don't know how to start upgrading the matter manipulator yet, because the technology needed would be easier to understand. Instead of turning the crank yourself, you have an engine do it for you. instead of powering the engine, you have a battery. when you master that, then moving on to the matter manipulator for upgrades makes sense.

 

*headscratch*

The Matter Manipulator was removed as a focal point of the suggestion yesterday...

Hand-cranked drills is an interesting thought though. If you had the means to shape a pickaxe head, I guess I can't think of any reason you wouldn't be able to shape a few gears and a drill bit.

I still don't like the idea of motorized drills, as once you've got the tools to make a motor (namely, the robotic crafting table), it would make more sense to use those high-precision tools to make the tools of the times (sci-fi stuff).

 

No worries. i went through the first page and was moved to respond. Its my fault the TLR part of the discussion was missed.
Still, I'm looking at it from a standpoint of forcibly working your way up the technological ladder. Arm Power > Arm + Science > Science. And even with science stuff, you gotta walk before you can fly. That's the only reason i would see for Drills, was them mining faster than pickaxes. Personally, I love pickaxes because they just look wicked in the hands of anyone.
Technologically speaking, modern motorized drills are still kinda low-tech for modern times. And modern mechanized hand drills are more for crafting than mining. For mining, you'd need something like The Man-Opener from Fallout 3's The Pitt expansion.

Edit: Technically, you would have the crude means to create a motor after you get up to steel and that strange magma table, considering you make a berserk giant robot with it. the robotics table would be more for fine circuits and even then you would prolly want the wiring table for the super-fine circuits too... hmm... Wiring table... my brain is thinking something there.. but i don't have enough caffeine to complete it.

 

this is like the whole 'axe on a spaceship' arguement from Prometheus all over again...

anyway
your bike analogy is flawed, styles often change more than technology does.
for example, look at a motorbike from 100 years ago-- it's functioning on the same basic concepts, yet looks completely old and outdated

so i agree with your partially, the player shouldn't really need to rely on pickaxes to the point of making them out of diamond
but drills can stay in the game. the basic premise is your working your way up from stone age to 22nd century, it wouldn't make sense to have such a rapid jump.

a good progression would be: pickaxe -> drill -> laser cutter -> some sort of automatic particle disintigrator, or something
the latter two (or maybe just the last one) only being craftable after getting blueprints for them (do you really expect the average person to know how a particle disintigrator works?)

 

*tiphat*

I was wondering if you had somehow managed view a cached version of the page, and was seeing it as it appeared before the edit. The idea has developed enough that it's getting to the point that I should probably just have this thread deleted and make a new revised suggestion based on all the input I've received... but the discussion's still flowing on, so maybe later. But I digress...

To clarify, the substitute for drills has been changed from Matter Manipulators to ____________. Folks were focusing way too intently on the Matter Manipulator, and ignoring the core of the discussion, which is the removal of drills. That's not to say that the MM's aren't still an option, but they're one of many.

I can agree to that! It's not the labor-intensive nature of drills I have a problem with; but the era they belong in. There's no reason low-end sci-fi wouldn't require some elbow grease... though admittedly, sci-fi devices do tend to be point-and-click, so coming up with a low end sci-fi device will probably require a bit more brain storming than the rest, but I'll see if I can come up with some ideas.

As would their replacement.

+1

"low tech for modern times" has no business showing it's face in a sci-fi setting... although it's funny you mention fallout, as a post apocalyptic setting is an exception I've cited a few times, and that's exactly what fallout is. ^_^

Don't have that xpac, but I just looked up that man opener... that's basically just a saw - not sure that would do a whole lot of good for mining.

Oh yea, I'd forgotten that the metalwork station allows for circuitry/robotics. Guess I've been a bit tunnel-visioned on the robotic crafting table. The question that brings, though, is if you have the means to build a fairly beefy robot, controlled by an actual brain you harvested and modified, no less, don't you think that's already gotten passed the technological point in which drills would be a realistic tool of choice? Perhaps the step after pickaxes can be something robotic in nature?

 

*sigh* you'd think I'd have learned by now to stop trying to use analogies... it's impossible to make a comparison without people trying to nit-pick something about it that doesn't add up. The fact is, drills aren't dirt bikes, and sci-fi mining items aren't speeder bikes, therefore comparing them can not mesh up 100%

The point I was trying to communicate is that non-sci-fi items being featured in a sci-fi setting stand out like a sore thumb. "But haltus, tech can't be sore, and it completely lacks knuckles!"

*that frustration isn't directed at you, btw, fish_heads. There have been a lot of folks in this thread to whom I've attempted to explain from every possible angle why using ancient tech in anything other than an emergency situation is ridiculous, and they come back like a broken record, saying the same thing over and over again, and ignoring any logic they're presented with.

THAT premise is exactly what I have a problem with. Getting from the stone age to the 22nd century is something that takes as long as... getting from the stone age to the 22nd century (BRING IT, TROLLS! Tell me why that's a bad analogy!). We're talking about a planet full of people, spanning across who-knows-how-many generations for that to happen.

There is no reason ^that kind of progression should happen on an INDIVIDUAL level... unless that individual happens to be immortal, and was born in the stone age.

An individual level of progression should be making the best you can with the resources you've got. If you're resources consist almost entirely of what you can find in nature, then sticking a rock on a stick to make a shoddy pickaxe is a reasonable first step. As you find coal to fuel your ship, you also come across metal ores, so shaping them into metal pick heads is a reasonable next-step.

...then you get your ship fueled up, and you have IMMEDIATE access to a massive chunk of the universe, filled with all sorts of civilizations, including some sci-fi-level developed civilizations. You have access to all this obscenely advanced tech by today's standards. and the step you take next is to make... a drill. Not like that nifty sci-fi drill they used to blow a whole through a planet in that Startrek movie; but today's drill, with the little motor and physical drill bit.

That is why we should go from pickaxe to sci-fi tech. And I'm not saying we should go from pick to our end game, top ties mining utensil - there still has to be progression.

Pickaxe -> ore-extracting-robotic-arm-on-a-stick-that-your-character's-grandpa-used-for-mining-endeavors -> laser-cutter-device-that-your-character's-dad-used-for-mining-endeavors -> particle-disintegrator-or-something

^That is what progression should look like on an individual level. Notice the grandpa's and dad's tools showing up in the mix - it's fine to go back a generation or two; that tech would reasonably be cheaper or easier to access. But making and using hundreds-of-years-old tech would be a waste of time and effort.

 

Riddle me this. Don't people usually go out to support something when they don't like how things are currently? As opposed to keeping things the same. I can hardly say that this is an accurate argument. Argument aside... I do find everything that kahvi said agreeable. I will cease to reply back to this thread, as it is difficult to sway someone of your uh.... "resolve." so... uh... goo' bye

 

You'd make a great politician. "The people voted one way, but I'm going to go the other direction, cuz most of the people who support what I want probably just didn't vote."

Yes, she put a refreshingly large amount of thought into her posts. Don't suppose you read my responses?

Refusal to consider logic and reason not working for you, then? Oh well. At the very least, I don't recall a slew of insults coming from your direction, so that was nice...er than some of the other steadfast members of the opposition. Should you change your mind, you are of course welcome to rejoin the discussion. Until then: so long, and thanks for all the bumps.