Why it is important to get a Beta out

Well, they can end the current pre order session, which its main draw, other than help to fund them and the stretch goals, was to get Beta Access. Sure pre orders will be shut down for a while, but it will build hype in those that missed the opportunity. Think of it as an early beta testing phase. They can then re open another pre order session, probably a little more expensive for the base game (20 bucks??? just a random number) with none of the Pseudo Kickstarter Rewards until the game's release. It wouldn't be technically breaking the whatever though I don't think they actually promised they will never let more people get into the beta.

 

Wow, this blew up pretty fast. I'll address some main points I saw:
1. People will rage if the beta is buggy/unstable.
Will they? Minecraft aside, there are numerous examples of less-than-perfect betas that did not spell doom for the game by any stretch of the imagination (i.e. Guild Wars 2, Tribes: Ascend, Don't Starve, StarCraft 2, Team Fortress 2, DayZ, World of Tanks, Kerbal Space Program, etc.). Sure, there will be some people who will complain, but I feel like by and large, people (especially the kind of people who would be interested in a 2D space-themed sandbox adventure game) will be able to recognize that a beta does NOT represent a finished product. This is especially true if the beta is limited to only those who pre-ordered. You see, it is all a matter of identifying potential in the game. If a player sees a game in beta for what it could potentially become by release, he/she will excuse occasional bugs/glitches/crashes (Don't Starve, DayZ, and Kerbal Space Program are good examples of this). The Starbound community (expecially those who pre-ordered) clearly recognize the potential the game has, and will still see that potential even if the beta has technical issues.

2. There is never a good reason for a rushed beta.
I entirely agree. I never said they should "rush" the beta, I'm simply saying they should prioritize it more highly than it seems that they have been. I'm also not saying that they shouldn't take time to ensure that the game works reasonably well. No matter how much time they spend, however, there will inevitably be bugs that get missed. That is excusable though, since ironing out bugs and crashes is one of the main purposes of beta, which is something a lot of people here seem to be forgetting.

3. Why do you feel entitled to have a say in the game's development?
Well, (a) that is one of the main purposes of having a beta in the first place, and (b) community interaction in that way engenders positive attitudes towards the devs. Also, when I talk about influencing the game's development, I obviously don't mean making drastic design changes. I'm talking about small tweaks that people might want that maybe the devs overlooked.

4. This is just another "I WAN PLAY NAO!1!!!1" thread.
Well, perhaps that applies to some degree (yes, I would enjoy playing Starbound sometime in the near future), but this is intended to be a more intelligent version of those threads, and as such, I would expect a more intelligent response.

 

Yes, thank you for posting something that makes sense.

 

Well, the only issue I take is with point 3. To illustrate my point, I will use an example.

There's another indie game called "Starforge", which is kind of like Minecraft meets Halo with some parkour thrown in (there's more to it than that, but, eh).
Near the end of March (2013), the Alpha went live on Steam Early Access, and controversy followed shortly thereafter.
Not because it's an Alpha, but because the Alpha that was released is completely lacking in content; and not in any way representative of what the demo videos showed. Worse, even if you do play around in it, it eventually crashes due to a lack of optimization.
(to the point people were claiming that it was a scam; what actually happened is Codehatch was in the process of changing game engines right around the Alpha release. Very very bad timing on their part.)

Worse, the Alpha hasn't been updated since then, which IMO was a huge mistake, since after the initial buzz from the Alpha launch on Steam, their forums and community have gone completely dead.
There is NOBODY talking about Starforge right now.

The moral in this, is that the dev team absolutely needs to get a Beta (or any prelaunch version of the game) out, but only when they are in a position to routinely support it.
Terraria went through much a less-extreme circumstance with its 1.1 patch. Fortunately, months of previews and a relatively solid core game alleviated the wait.

Now, from what I've seen, most of the core gameplay of Starbound is far more developed than Starforge. But let's not put Chucklefish into that position by rushing the beta too much.
I agree that a longer beta cycle (assuming 2013 release) means a better launch, and based on what has been demonstrated and what needs to be done on the roadmap, I'm guesstimating a June Beta at earliest.

 

All that is just my opinion, okay? Okay.

Developers themselves know about the most serious issues, crashes and bugs of their own game. If beta will run two months (or even less) before the final release it's going to be pretty enough of time to fix like 98% of all game bugs and other things, because community will just blow up on helping developers as it always happens (fans are fans). That's exactly reason why game won't hit internet till all main features are in. There's no real reason to get it sooner, it will be a mess and less productive for developers and fans all together. Let it go really careful and smooth, people. Just follow Finn's twitter and remain calm, and patient. You pre-ordered the game, you supported lovely young creative team there, now just wait for e-mail to come. Better start making comics, short novels, fan arts, suggestions and etc., and keep telling everyone about Starbound game — these are most absolutely awesome things you can do right now, to keep developers in good mood and to let them have much more happy working spirit.

 

There where a lot of mature and though out points made here, I do agree in a way that it's good to try to get the beta out early so testers can help find bugs and kinda not have have a time frame compare to a maybe less than a 2 week beta. In the other hand this cold cause problems because as Bacon said for some people it will make the game seem like that's how it's going to be on the final release and we will see a lot of rage people spamming the forums and could lead to hurting the image of the game. Either way I want the game to be as ready as possible when the beta releases and then expect a full release a few weeks from that.

 

I have posted about Starforge 3 times in this thread already, but I am assuming no one is reading it which is hurtin my feelinz

I'm starting to think no one is really discussing anything in here

 

Wow I read and visited that linked you posted, feel sorry for those starforge guys. I agree with you, that will happen if the beta gets release early.

 

Betas are a double-edged sword, IMO. On one hand, its a fantastic way to get a game polished. With so many people playing, bugs will be hunted and eradicated without mercy. On the other hand...I really don't want to ruin my Starbound experience by playing a crappy version of it. As much as I really, REALLY can't wait for this game, I know that the beta will, by it's very nature, be incomplete. I just don't want to get too committed to a game before the sparkly finished version comes out, because I want to experience it from the beginning in it's full glory.

Anyone understanding where I'm coming from here? Basically, think of it like Minecraft. The game has been in beta for years, and everyone's been playing this constantly evolving game where content is being pushed out piece by piece. And every time something new comes out, you feel like the game would have been so much better if you had started with it. Or even worse, something is added to the game that you can't have without starting over. It taints the enjoyment.


Anyways, point is I have mixed feelings about playing the beta. I guess it depends on how close to finished it is. If they're 90% done and just need people to hunt down the last rogue bugs, I'm all for it. If the game is like half finished, though, I might just wait.

 

I think it's rather safe to say that we have absolutely no idea about their priorities development wise. It's not like the beta will be something completely different than the full game, developed by different teams. If you're focused on finishing your game (and it's pretty clear that they are focused on that) you'll have a beta ready as a by-product.

 

Well i suppose the only thing i can do at this point is politely state that i disagree. There are two ways to go about developmental beta. One is to wait until every feature you wish to be complete for release to be finished and implemented before it's released to those who preordered or the public, and the only thing to do is bug fix. That's the option Tiy wants to go with. Option two is release the game when stable and enough features to actually keep people interested in it enough to play long enough to find any bugs, then update it with features as they are finished. If they are not interested in playing at all, even those who are doing it to help bug fix will get bored, these people are not paid. This is the option i would prefer.

A lot of people in this thread are going on and on about how people cannot tell the difference between beta and early release. To those people i say have a little faith. This is not a low brain power game. It's entire attractiveness is being able to pour your imagination into it, so it will attract a certain brand of people. It's graphics are also not the best so it will dissuade all the "PRETTY COLORS" people. I feel that i can entrust anyone who would look at a game like terraria or starbound with sparkles and that "i want" look on their face to read simple things like "this is a beta, and as such unfinished. The final game will include much more" and understand what that means. I have faith in these people, and i think some of you may benefit from not being so quick to assume.

I also feel some of you may want to look at the difference between voicing an opinion and raging. Someone pointed to the thread about the stretch goal and claimed everyone was completely out of hand and raging. Some people probably went a bit far with it sure, but for the most part i saw (and exhibited) a show of displeasure of the idea, as well as how it was presented, the specifics of which are not for this thread. There is a difference between stating that you disagree with something and citing reasons. It seems to be the attitude of some people that if you aren't being super nice and agreeable and thanking everyone with every other word out of your mouth that you are a raging child who needs to learn maturity and patience. This is a video game. Video games are as much the developer's idea of what they want their game to be as it is what the community would enjoy. The developer's role is an obvious one i don't need to explain, but without the community there is no point in publishing a game. As such it is the developer's goal (i would hope) to please the community. Not cater to their every whim and start up a business selling baby pacifiers, but there are some situations where the developer(s) may not know the better route to take for something. I'm not talking specifically beta here, i also mean in game things. Some people in here have said "why does anyone here think they are entitled to have any say in the development of the game". Well i think our input should certainly be taken into consideration. Developers are not perfect, and good ones would admit they may not know what is best in every situation.

In the end this seems to be a topic the developers are set on, so furthering the discussion is pretty moot. We all seem to have our opinion on it but short of one of the dev team popping in and saying "We're considering both sides, and would like to hear from everyone on why" nothing else is going to come of it. So i think i'm done on this topic.

 

On the subject of Beta....

While I would -very- much like an early Starbound Beta, the truth is we don't know whether such would be playable in any appreciable form of what the end content should be.... especially considering the goal of a progression mechanic throughout an actual story. Some of that story meant to affect gameplay itself in fact which might mesh well with an early beta experience.

And while many games were cited as example of "proper" public betas, I would be tempted to claim that examples such as Starcraft 2 and Company of Heroes 2 are bad one. Those game's development were well underway before they were made available as betas or even announced altogether... by then, they were more or less the complete game perhaps just without a single-player campaign yet... but very much technically near-complete except for bug-hunting and balance tweaks.

When Starbound say they want to wait before making a beta, I believe it is because they want to reach this level of completedness as well so as not to disapoint. Because, yes there has been games which have disapointed.

PEople mention how Minecraft was released in Alpha and did well... but they forget the point of why this worked. Minecraft was one of the firsts in it's genre. Even as an early alpha, it was something fundamentally new when it was first released such that playing it as is already was something new. As such, nothing was "missing" yet and it could only improve from there.
This is also why an example like Kerbal Space program also doesn't fit that much, since again we are talking about a first in it's genre.
The problem is that past the first game in a genre, then it isn't new anymore.
And any new games in the genre can now suffer from direct comparisons to the state of those already released. Why play more of the same, half-completed, when one already complete is already available?

Games in the sandbox genre such as Edge of Space, the fore-mentionned Starforge and Darkout all have suffered from some degree from such comparisons. Because there is now already complete games in these genres to which they can be compared to.... and the lacking of developped due to not being developped yet becomes even more apparent and prone to produces criticism that the devs released their game incomplete.

Who after all would wish to play Terraria with only one type of enemy througout the -whole- world, only very basic and piecemeal weapons and equipment selection and placeholder graphics(or even recipes) everwhere... when there is an already "complete and playable" Terraria to play anyway?

 

in some way spacebound is the first one of it's genre, too. of course, there are games where you build houses, bases, go exploring, craft equipment and so on, but let alone the spaceship mechanic, the ability of travelling to other planets is a really really rare thing. maybe the ones, who want the beta so badly, wouldn't have any problem if there are not all npc, or if they can't reach the last crafting recipes, or even if there is little to no story, cause they want to try out whats THERE, not whats NOT there. releasing the beta doesn't mean it has to stay this way until release, there could be patches or new download versions of the game when a new chunk of recipes or whatever is done.
except that, an open timeframe doesn't help always developing the perfect game. sometimes it is the problem itself by developing SO long time, that the hype has already cooled down and the game doesn't get that much attention. 3d games have also the graphics barrier, that makes a game that was developed too long look old. that one doesn't apply for spacebound because it has that nice 2d look.
i'm just getting examples for both views as i'm writing, and i'm tired of it. i want to play starbound, and even if this only applies for me: i wouldn't even mind if i had only starter materials and no armors at all and couldn't travel between planets. but right now i'm just sad that i have to wait for maybe such a long time. and the WORST is that i don't know if it's even correct that the time is so long, maybe the beta is released tomorrow and i was pointlessly sad. that would make me sad, too. well and happy that i could play it

 

The problem is..... yes those are new mechanics and make it a "new" game of it's own.

But you are speaking of them as if they were all fully implemented.... if at all in some case.

Would you play Starbound even if -all- you could do was build on a planet where the procedural generation might even lack some of the intended materials that -should- make even just a basic planet? Or if the harvesting mechanics weren't even fully complete either?

Or for another example, would you play Starbound even if the only way to make something that was complete for it's level of development would be making a Terraria-like version of MinecrafT's creative mode, without truly functional monsters and such(that is, purely creative mode game, without even being in 3D or creatures you can really interact with yet)?

I'm not saying it is the case, but that yes there is much room for you to be disapointed.

And do note. This come from someone who actually pre-ordered to get access to a beta when it is released. But having seen both the Darkout and Edge of Space betas, I'd rather have a beta that fits the developpers' intented level of completion(near complete or almost), rather than more of the same "2d platformer sandbox with much content still very missing".

"Be careful what you wish for, you might get it" is my opinion regarding public betas nowdays after testing these twos.

 

Keeping it short and sweet, so far the game looks amazing, from the videos and information we have seen, this game ticks just about every box in my micromanaging grindfest imaginatorium that make my toes tingle in just the right way, Tiy has as far as I am concerned, got his shit right so far, lets trust him to get it right in the future!

 

@ludovic: yes, i would. the question isn't if i would play it, the question is how long i would play it before put it to a side, be quiet and wait for further updates.
what i was trying to say is that the time while you wait only puts the measurement upwards. if you have to wait a long time for something you really want, you will draw it in your mind in the brightest colours you can imagine. and the longer you wait the more colours you'll add to it. and at some point you WILL be disappointed, even by a perfect working game. why i want to play it, even in a very rough, uncompleted state? because i'm afraid that the colours i'm using to draw my imagination of starbound will be too bright. if i see it in a early state, i won't use THAT bright colours at all, if it's not fitting. if i have to wait too long i know that i will be easier to disappoint.
would be already helping to know HOW playable it is, but in this regard everybody is speculating and nobody knows anything. and i was always an impatient one

 

I actually forgot about Starforge, mostly because the only thing it seemed to show that differed from traditional survivals was 1) You could build turrets, and 2) You could raise unique defenses. That wasn't much to show off, and from what it sounds like, the game offers little more. Nonetheless, Starbound's offering a lot more than just guns and fighting things and defending yourself. As did many other Beta survival titles manage to make it through without being blown in the water, they provided the perfect amount of content that wasn't minimal, but satisfied everyone to see it developed from there.

The moral of the story, as we've seen with Starforge and Don't Starve: Don't put the game on Steam until it's done. Everywhere else, games that don't do that seem to turn out just fine, probably the general audience of steam having an entitlement feeling that the game should be perfectly-tailored to them even though it's a Beta and in the process of development.

 

Guess not. *shrugs*
I tend to skim when topics go beyond 3 pages.
But since you have ninja'd me about Starforge, I'll leave the discussion to you.

No, the moral is that you shouldn't sell half-built games to the public if you aren't ready to support them.
Public Beta testing is fine; even paid access to the beta is fine, but make sure you don't leave your audience in the dark for weeks on end when you do so.
This applies irregardless of Steam being full of entitled brats.

 

Guys, lets just get a flag and put a picture of the dev team on it, salute it, then decide to let them do their stuff. They're doing great with Starbound, what makes you think their beta plans will turn out differently?

 

Because we don't have the Beta yet is one of the reasons, mainly. Hehe. But also, I think at one point they had mentioned that they wanted to give us a Beta that was bug-free . Which I don't think is how Beta is supposed to work.