Why cheesing is an issue in Starbound but not Terraria.

New!: The changelog for the new version just released. We'll see how much of the issue this resolves soon.
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I'm aware that there are numerous threads already created on the subject, but posts made in them are easily overlooked and I feel like I have something important to address with the issue. You see, everyone is focusing on how to "make cheesing impossible" -- changing game and combat mechanics to make it so you can't do it. I agree that, to an extent, a couple changes need to be made in that manner. However, this is not the primary issue. The question we need to ask ourselves is, "Why is cheesing an issue in Starbound, but not Terraria?". This is what I would like to discuss here.

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This subject is not the primary reason I created this thread, but for the sake of coverage (and before I get to my primary point), I would like to observe the differences in Starbound and Terraria when concerning the difference in Block Placement and Combat mechanics. First, block placement. A big factor is that, compared to Terraria, you have a huge range for placing blocks. This makes it much easier to imprison your enemies because you don't have to endanger yourself by getting close to them. You can layout extensive traps and prisons from an extremely safe distance, and your enemy is helpless to do anything.

Another factor is the mechanics of combat -- the way you (and your enemies) fight. The biggest issue -- in fact, the only thing in this entire category that I would call an issue, is the fact that you can blatantly hit through walls. To make matters worse, your defenseless enemies generally cannot. In Terraria, this is partially fixed, you cannot hit through solid walls unless you create an opening. If you create an opening, you can use ranged weapons to attack through it which is a working tactic in both games. But, that's never really been an issue in Terraria has it? Well, a big reason for that is because all bosses can fly through walls (unless you count the Slime boss), and several enemies as well. But you can still cheese regular enemies in Terraria, and that alone is a big deal in Starbound, so why is it not an issue in Terraria?

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This is my biggest point so listen up. You can cheese monsters in Terraria, and you can cheese monsters in Starbound, but in Terraria it isn't a big deal. Why? Incentive. In Terraria, there are still a large amount of monsters that can be defeated through cheesy tactics, but it's not really worth it. Regular monsters tend to have low payouts and, when you need something from them, you generally have to kill them in abundance. Starbound on the other hand has incredibly powerful monsters that often, if not always, will have a very high payout. You can travel to the highest level planet in your sector, trap an NPC or a boss, and kill them to receive a weapon that's capable of one hit killing almost everything in the lower levels of your sector.

I did have one more point to address that I originally intended to address before this one, but Incentive worked it's way in as a conclusion to a former paragraph. That last point is...

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This one is a big too, so read. Monsters in Terraria have a variety of behaviors -- and I'm not talking about mechanically where some fly, some go through walls, some freaking teleport, we talked about that earlier -- now I'm talking about how they utilize the functions assigned to them and interact with the player. For starters, monsters did not casually stand and pace around waiting for the player to get in range, they detected the player and immediately went after him as soon as they become aware of their presence. If it was like this in Starbound, players would not be able to stand a few feet outside of their detection area and casually imprison them so easily. Terrarian monsters tend to jump over and out of obstacles as soon as they get in their way of where they want to go, while Starbounds just tend to reroute themselves or accept their fate.

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The reality is is that there is likely no one fix trick to getting rid of cheese. Common suggestions like monsters being able to break blocks would just lead to ranged-based approaches. There is, I believe, a current system in the game to significantly decrease monster drops if the user is not in combat with them which occurs when they are completely trapped, but this is circumvented by making a small opening in their prison that the enemy can detect users out of. The solution to this, if you can call it that, is several small changes that aim to make it:

• Less practical; making it harder to achieve through small changes that don't entirely make it impossible but make it more difficult, such as fixing it so users can't hit through solid walls, giving certain enemies special properties that make them impervious to it like the ability to teleport, being able to move through walls, and perhaps certain ones that can break blocks even though I don't agree to that fix being a good solution for all monsters.
  
• Less desirable; making this approach of achieving items moderately inefficient. Making it so users only have access to planets that they can reasonably challenge. Stopping users from going to planets where they would only arrive to be killed in one hit would be a good start. Giving the users access to monsters that strong lessens their incentive to go fight weaker ones. Lowering high-level drops for users of "lower level" and lowering drops in general would also make it less desirable.
  
  Note: The examples following the emboldened text are just that, examples.

Beyond this, there is nothing that can be done. But with the proper implementation it's all that should need to be done. Cheesing cannot be fixed, but there are other ways.

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I hope this thread doesn't come off as bigoted. I don't mean to be in anyone's face or act like I know more than them, it's just an issue that I've given a lot of thought and hope that my conclusion may be able to help some of you reach your own. I'm not sure what's going to happen, but something is going to be changed to make this less of a problem before the official release. I hope my insight was of some contribution.

 

Don't forget, this is still in beta.

 

I know that better than anyone. During the beta there's even more importance in discussing matters like this for the future, however. Before things become solidified, before change is less welcomed and the development of mechanics becomes less prevalent.

 

Which is why hes mentioning this as an issue as keeping quiet might make the problem escape to release.

 

This is already a thing.

 

I don't think anyone in these forums are allowed to forget that fact. it is stated more often then anything else. I Believe 90% of the posts on here are one liners (oft times one word) quips about this being a beta.

I like the idea of decreasing the range of placing blocks. i hadn't thought of that yet.

The "being able to hit monsters through blocks" is something that should be fixed eventually, i can't Imagine that it wont be.

The next patch will hit soon lets hold the lynch mobs for a bit longer and see how things go shall we?

-edit- typo

 

Yes, we know it's in beta. That's WHY people make threads like this. What better time to give the feedback?

This is a fine way to deflect thoughtless rage, but the OP has gone out of their way to compile thoughtful feedback. The devs can't read minds, it's important to voice opinions. This isn't the OP judging you vicariously through a thing that you like. This is the OP caring about the game enough to type up insightful feedback and propose solutions that they thing will make the game they like better. They're doing more for the game by posting feedback than you are by trying to deflect it.

That being said, I think there's lots of good points here. 'Cheese tactics' are generally used to get around game mechanics that are overly unpleasant or simply designed in a way that is easy to exploit. The focus should not be on "How do we tweak the game to make these behaviors impossible?" It should be "How can we tweak the game to make the intended behaviors fun and desireable?"

The upcoming combat overhaul may solve all this, we'll see.

 

If you are referring to the next update where they are changing up planetary levels, you shouldn't be so hasty. We don't know yet if that is going to function in a way that accords to that idea. Users may still have access to monsters that they can not legitimately defeat, which is something I believe should be cut down on. If you're referring to sectors, as I said, users can go to the highest level available in their sector where monsters are still too strong for the user to have any business being there.

 

It's "stage 1" beta. We are supposed to test everything and suggest how to improve it. If you have a suggestion how to fix it then post it over there.

 

I put it here because the primary point of the thread isn't for me to be giving my own suggestions, it's to give my insight which will hopefully inspire users to come up with creative suggestions and fixes themselves.

 

I like the problem, but not the solutions.

I dont like that the game says to me "you can't go to here just because we havent found a better way yo avoid that you get something to powerfull".

If we talk about terraria you in theory on your start can go to the dungeon, kill skeletron, get inside and get mumarasa or other overpower weapons.... but, you will never kill the skeletron or survive in the dungeon... In starbound, there is nothing that really avoid you to get into the 10, 20, 30, level planet with the alvian store with enough pixels to buy a good weapon and kill everything in the sector.

I like that, that the game really says to you "you are in someplace you shouldnt be, I will show you what happen", and you die pathetically but after in the game you feel really good for beating that dungeon, or monsters or boss.

I think what Starbound needs, is a good progression system, with more intelligent mosters and bosses, and more progression things, because now the progression is very simple and easy to break and get high-end gear in hours, should be more hard... but also more funny and intuitive.

Personally think that they have a LOT of work here, but they will do, because they know how epic this game can be if the do it the way it have to be.

 

Someone suggested an easy fix, disable block placement while engaged in combat. Just like dwarves cant focus with carps or elephants nearby.

 

I think it reflects on me as a gamer that I do this kind of stuff all the time, especially when its kinda cheaty, but I don't do it in Starbound because the Pixels are generally not worth it. The damage that the monsters do, especially before you have armor above the tier makes it dangerous and stupid to go attacking everything you can. I like the long block placement range (it is a major improvement over Terraria), but the only reason I was able to beat the first boss legitimately was by "cheesing" (not what I'd call it).

This is not so much a symptom of the block placement mechanics, as the general difficulty in surviving economically.

At least for me.

Also, props for one of the most respectful criticisms I've read on the forum to date.

Please, don't do that. I don't want to have to deal with that.

 

Apparently that was too much to ask for lulz

 

General Discussion is coincidentally where the 'Leave Feedback' button on the launcher leads. Maybe we should give feedback about -that-? Haha.

 

Well I agree it should be fixed I see no reason to compare terreria a fully complete game to a beta game.

 

Would it not be possible to just make it so that attacks can no longer do damage if there is a wall in the way?

Alternatively, give monsters regen when they are out of combat for a certain period of time. If they cant pathfind to the player they stop aggroing and regen begins, this would stop players from cheesing monsters that are a higher level than the player but wouldnt stop the player from one hitting the lower level monsters.

In regards to bosses, what about making their attacks phase through everything? No amount of blocks is going to save the player in that case.

 

the reason people are cheesing their balls off is because everything 1 hit kills them and nothing ever drops a gun, seriously since i got a decent gun from a chest on a level 40 planet i finaly stopped cheesing other 1 shot kill snipers because i can actually aproach them now

 

Even if they make it so we can't hit through walls, people who are so inclined will easily find ways to cheese in a game where you can manipulate the world around you.

It's a non issue to me, I don't cheese and my girlfriend (the only person I play with) doesn't either. If you don't cheese, then why does it matter if others choose to do it and dilute their gaming experience?

 

I agree completely. I know my suggestions aren't the perfect fix, if they were I wouldn't have bothered explaining all of this so people could come up with their own. I mainly wanted to point out what people should be focusing on when figuring out how to fix this. What you said is exactly what I want to see from the game in the future and a great embodiment of how I feel on the issue.