The new and improved Greenhouse setup!

I'm just trying to help you have the optimal greenhouse, pal. The math is simple. I stated in one of my posts that you can grow w/e nonsense in your greenhouse to support you until you get your crystalariums up and running, but in the end, if you want optimal results from your greenhouse, it's crystalariums all the way down. This applies to every reachable square inch of your farm and town as well lol.

 

Not sure if serious or trolling...

Dude. Seriously. I don't know how to explain it any plainer. You're settling for roughly 195g/d per square of greenhouse. I'm doing over twice that.

 

Gotta say, im loving this hops/diamonds discourse. 10,000g says shneekey beats serert unconscious with a trellis

 

Once he realizes how much money he could have been making with crystalariums on every possible tile in-game, he'll get right on making a prototype of my diamond farm idea. No, diamond world idea. I'm thinking it would only take a fraction of his playtime so far to do so.

 

In case anyone is viewing this in 2019, you can get 31 trees & 77 hops in a greenhouse -- the most gold/day possible.
Another perk of this setup is you can squeeze exactly 26 kegs into the greenhouse as well, enough for all the Ancient Fruit being produced.

Also if you don't want to read all of OP's text it basically boils down to;
Non-profession prices: (Assuming everything made into wine/ale)

Proposed:

Peach/Pomegranate trees - (31*420) = 13020
Hops - (77*300) = 23100
Ancient Fruit - ((26*1650)/7) = 6129​

Total: 42249g/day

"Traditional": 18 trees & Ancient Fruit

Peach/Pomegranate trees - (18*420) = 7560
Ancient Fruit - ((116*1650)/7) = 27343​

Total: 34903g/day

As you can see it's nearly 20% more daily income from your greenhouse even before factoring in things like Artisan.

 

I think the argument that crystalariums could replace the kegs is a fair one. Whether there is a space premium or not, it's a bit weird to say that the plant-based greenhouse optimum is allowed to have as much off-site infrastructure as you like, but the crystalarium version can't have any.

To me, one major advantage of crystalariums is that they are very low maintenance. You don't have to carry stuff from one place to another or load up kegs at particular times. You just harvest once a week and sell. Bam. Done. On the other hand, that also makes them kind of boring... Maybe less boring that loading hundreds of kegs though; that depends on the person and their mood. I'd say the killer for crystalariums is really the setup cost. Kegs cost a bit to set up; but they'll pay themselves back relatively quickly (since resin is not purchasable, I guess we can imagine that the cost is instead represented by the sapper). Crystalariums on the other hand, are not likely to ever pay themselves back before I get sick of my farm and start a new one.


By the way, regarding fruit trees, it's now well known that once they mature you can plant stuff around them and still get fruit... but what I'm still unsure of is this: if you plant stuff around the fruit tree, does that stop it from maturing to higher quality fruit? For example, an unobstructed fruit tree starts producing silver star fruit after 1 year. Does a fruit tree surrounded by crops also produce higher quality fruit after one year, or do the surrounding crops prevent it from upgrading?

 

Yes, it does keep their quality from improving.

 

The goal here is to maximize profit from the space within the greenhouse. What happens outside the greenhouse stays outside the greenhouse. It's not a very difficult concept. The greenhouse has very limited space, therefore you have to maximize your profit from it. And Crystalariums simply can't compete.

Crystallariums are also not very profitable on a per-square basis. Even assuming you use Diamonds, the most expensive gems you can grow, you're only looking at a weekly profit of 750, as compared to ancient fruit which comes out to 2,310g.

If you want to be lazy, just fill it full of ancient fruit. 116 ancient fruit comes out to 267,960g/wk, as opposed to 116 crystallariums (which you can't even do because you can't walk through them) which would only bring you a theoretical 87,000g/wk. You only need to harvest and keg once a week.

Hell, even if you want to count each crystallarium twice, once for the plant and once for the keg, the fruit STILL comes out ahead by almost a hundred thousand per week. Crystallariums are just bad as far as a profit perspective goes.

And ancient fruit is one of the LESS profitable things you can do with your Greenhouse.

Yes, it stops it from maturing to higher quality fruit, but it is also irrelevant because you're either turning it into preserves or brewing it into wine, depending on your supply of kegs, and artisan goods ignore base quality of the initial product.

 

I generally like your thoughtful and informative posts. You use facts and calculations to make your arguments; and present the information in a clear way. But I don't like that you've got a bit snarky here. Of course it is "not a difficult concept"; but that doesn't mean it's the only way or the best way to calculate things. I personally have no interest in using crystallariums to make money. I just thought it was fair to take into account that the max-profit crops in the greenhouse use a heaps of off-site things that you have to build and maintain to get that max profit. So restricting crystallariums to only the greenhouse is not necessarily a fair comparison. That's all I was trying to say. Your answer is good - except for the little jab implying that me, or the other poster are a bit mentally slow. We didn't need that.

 

I agree that profit/space isn't a useful metric in almost all games, but when using it, I believe crystallariums do beat ancient fruit wine.

Consider a greenhouse full of ancient fruit and the kegs to process it, which produces 116 x 330 = 38,280g/day. A barn has 205 usable spaces, but only 136 impassable items fit with walking space, for about 1.51 spaces taken up for each productive space. So for the 116 kegs, about 175 spaces are used. The total spaces used is 120 + 175 = 295, and the profit/day/space is 129.8g.

In the same amount of space, you can fit 92 + 116 = 208 crystallariums. Crystallariums with diamonds produce 975g/5 days with Gemologist, which is 195g/day. 208 x 195g/day = 40,560g/day, 137.6g/day/space.

However, ancient fruit jam beats crystallariums. The profit/day is only 116 x 230 = 26,680g, but you only need 34 jars to process everything. For 34 jars, about 51 spaces are used, for 120 + 51 = 171 total spaces. Profit/day/space is about 156.0g.

In the same amount of space, you can fit 92 + 34 = 126 crystallariums. 126 x 195g/day = 24,570g/day, 143.7g/day/space.

I suspect hops and tree fruit lose on a per-space basis, since they require more processors per plant, though I'm not willing to calculate it out right now. My methodology might be flawed, since it gives varied values for crystallarium profit/day/space, and I used average items/space instead of actual layouts. But I think I'm satisfied for now.

 

You are quite correct, and I do apologize for that.

Here's how I would calculate it...

It takes approximately one week for a Crystallarium to process, it also takes approximately one week for an ancient fruit to produce and a keg to produce a wine. Since after your first week, the time difference is roughly equal, we'd be comparing apples to apples to use a weekly value.

An Ancient Fruit takes up one space. A Keg takes up one space. Therefore, two spaces are used. A Crystallarium takes one space, therefore only one space is used, and thus you can double up on your number of crystallariums to make things balance out.

A Diamond costs 750g/ea. For two, that's 1,500.

Ancient Fruit wine rings in at 2,310g/ea.

Ancient fruit is the clear winner. Even when you try to factor in space.

 

Plenty of lazy numbers in here, on both sides of the argument, so let's just tidy it all up, and establish what the greenhouse can produce on its own

If someone looking for the ultimate crop farm can use the Artisan profession for calculating the value of growing crops then it seems reasonable that someone who wants to make the ultimate crystalarium farm can use the Gemologist profession for calculating the value of making gems. That pumps up the value of each diamond to 974g. Furthermore, diamonds can be harvested every five days, which means the weekly profit per machine is 974 * 7/5 = 1363.6 per week.

Now we're building a little bit of momentum and getting somewhere....

You seem to be implying that the crystalariums are like crops and can only be placed on tillable soil, but obviously they can go on any square in the greenhouse. I just knocked up a layout with 172 of them



This layout leaves 89 squares free, which is about 66% space utilisation, not too shabby when you have to be able to reach every machine. This might be the most you can fit it, but I've never actually put them in the greenhouse before, and this was just dashed out in about three minutes, so while I'm not going to claim that it's totally optimal, it's probably going to be pretty close. So, now we have 172 machines each punching out 1,363g per week, that's 234,539g per week. OK, we haven't quite overhauled the 116 ancient fruit yet, but we're getting pretty damn close, breathing heavily down its neck, only about 12.5% short of parity.

The kegs are undoubtedly an integral part of the ancient fruit strategy, and they each take up a space too, but if you're just doing 116 ancient fruit, with no fruit trees, then it isn't even necessary to go outside the greeenhouse. Even with the soil fully planted, you can still get at least 102 unimpeded kegs inside the greenhouse on the tiles around the perimeter (couldn't be bothered swapping all crystalariums for kegs just for a screenshot, and they're interchangeable as far as space is concerned)



This means you only need a maximum of 14 kegs somewhere else. If you really want to stick to just what's inside the greenhouse, you could just sell those remaining 14 fruits raw (make sure it's the gold ones you sell), sacrificing just over 1,400g per fruit compared to making wine, and losing about 19,650g per week. Of course, unlike crystalariums, you can actually lift and reposition kegs at the end of each cycle, or pack them in a bit tighter down the right hand side and juggle a few extra sprinklers, which means if you're prepared to do that with those extra kegs and sprinklers, you can actually fit all the 116 kegs you need into the greenhouse and don't have to lose any income. But let's just assume the laziest option and sell our 14 spare fruit.

Remember, the diamonds were ~234,500g per week, and if we keep everything in the greenhouse, but are a bit lazy and can't be bothered with moving 14 kegs each week, the ancient fruit was brought down to about 248,300g per week. So, the diamonds do indeed fall short of the ancient fruit, but only just by about 13,800g, a lot closer than you'd have us believe, and certainly nowhere near the ~180k per week you originally implied, or even 100k. And in terms of number of interactions with plants and machinery, the ancient fruit are about one third more effort to maintain, which may not be worth the earnings difference for the lazy farmer, depending on what else you want to do with your farm. Counting crystalariums twice isn't fair on the crops though, otherwise diamonds, with 469k per week, really would totally destroy ancient fruit, so let's just compare apples with apples.


Of course, with a mix of hops, trees, ancient fruit and a little creativity, and including kegs elsewhere because there's effectively unlimited space out there in the valley to put them, I think you can get over 600k per week from a greenhouse, if you're prepared to do a little work.

 

You're also missing the fact that you CAN put 18 peach/pomegranate trees around the perimeter. Which is an additional 588g/day/each, or 74,088g/wk regardless of what you do in the center. So it's actually not as close as you might otherwise think.

False economy. You can put HUNDREDS of kegs in places like the upper path (from the Farm to Robin's) and in the road tunnel, where NPC's are never going to walk, that are completely off-farm, and do not impede anything. Granted, you can also put crystallariums, but I feel the cost will be... prohibitive. I mean, you're looking at two Iridium PER crystallarium. Are you really rolling in Iridium that much?

Okay.... how about this: We go with my setup of plants, vs your setup of 172 Crystalariums, then spot you a Crystalarium for every artisan machine (keg or jar) I use, because Crystalariums can also be placed off-farm, so if we're just looking at space, we can pretty well replace one for one an artisan machine with a Crystalarium

So... you're looking at 234,539g per week max out of your greenhouse if you use the optimal setup, and screw yourself by going Gemologist, as you pointed out.

However, going with 30 fruit trees, 74 hops, and 30 Ancient Fruit, and assuming you only turn the fruit trees into preserves instead of kegging, you're looking at 98,610g/wk from Trees + 217,560g/wk from hops + 69,300g/wk from ancient fruit = 383,670g/wk profit.

To do so, you would require 30 kegs for the fruit, 148 for the hops, and 60 preserve jars for the fruit trees. Assuming each of these artisan machines was replaced with a Crystallarium, just to be fair, you're looking at 238 additional crystalariums. Assuming each Crystalarium was good for 1363.6g/wk, that's an additional 324,536.8g/wk, which brings your total to just over 500k. 559,075g/wk to be precise.

SO... assuming you have the capability of creating 410 Crystalariums (that's over 800 Iridium, plus 400 batteries, plus assorted stuff that is easily farmable), AND you propogate everything with Diamonds, then yes, Crystalariums can beat plants.

Of course, by the time you can make that many Crystalariums, cash is likely irrelevant, but hey... if you want to put DeBeers out of business... you do you, man.

I'd be curious to see how fast someone can get that set up.

 

I've been meaning to post to this thread to say thank you to the person who added the new layout with extra fruit trees. I will be trying that out this game.

Regarding the other debate, what I don't understand is why someone would put the crystalariums in the greenhouse rather than elsewhere. Given the greenhouse can be so sustainably valuable with low effort, it would be the last place I would switch to crystalariums. Have the crops in the greenhouse and fill the bus tunnel with crystalariums, and you get the best of both worlds.

 

Gawd I love these threads.

 

Nice post, it's nice to see how the community matured and accepted this kind of debate, but you underestimate what your post can bring to casual players: they can choose any type of farm that they want, since the greenhouse alone could make all that profit. I say that because I see a lot of players expressing concern to the Riverland Farm for example, saying that they like of the looks but dislike of the available space.

 

Yes and no. You see... once you get your greenhouse and brewery going? Sure, easy street. Doesn't matter what you do with the rest of your farm, you'll still be raking in the cash hand over fist.

Getting there, however, can be more tricky on a more restrictive farm style like the River or Mountain farm.

About the soonest I've gotten the greenhouse unlock was the 12th of Fall of the first year (because of Pumpkin). However, your busiest season is going to be your first Spring, bar none. If you can't grow and get everything taken care of in your first couple of months, you're going to start missing key milestones. To get a first-year unlock really possible you need both a truffle and a rabbit's foot, which means a Deluxe Barn and Deluxe Coop, both of which are extremely expensive infrastructure investments. Worth the price, of course, but it's still cash (and other resources) you will need, and you'll need it FAST. Barn has to be fully upgraded to Deluxe by mid-summer if you want a pig fully grown and producing truffles before winter. Being able to afford that sort of upgrade without having a decent outdoor farm plot is going to be... particularly challenging.

The other issue with the river and mountain farm plots are the kegs. You're going to need a LOT of them. The most optimal setup requires 148 kegs for the hops, 30 kegs for the ancient fruit, and another either 60 preserves jars or 210 kegs. That's a lot of processing. Which means two things: Oak trees (for the resin for said kegs) and buildings to put the kegs/jars in. Which are going to take up a LOT of space. At least if you want to get the farm done in a reasonable amount of time.

It's certainly not impossible, especially if you don't mind going at a slower pace. But it is going to be more challenging to get to 'easy street' on a river or mountain farm than any other map.

 

I agree with that, but even a lazy person can unlock the greenhouse in year 2 without problems, assuming that the player is a forum user, he could read strategies for that, it isn't exactly hard, just require planning.

 

It's not just unlocking the greenhouse, it's getting all the kegs to brew everything. Even with a straight 116 Ancient Fruit, you need 116 kegs to keep them going. If you don't have a tree stand of 20-30 trees, it could be years before you get that much oak resin. If you are wanting to do the optimal route, it's going to need over 250 kegs to process, and that's assuming you're using 60 preserves jars for the trees instead of trying to brew them. And unlike placing kegs or jars, you're very restricted about where you can plant trees off of your farm.

So it's really the oak trees needed for the kegs to see your million to million and a half per season in profits that is the hangup with river and mountain farms. They take up a lot of space on a very cramped map.

 

Stats like gold/day are deceiving. Hops, technically, are better gold/day than Ancient Fruit. However, they are NOT a better crop for the greenhouse, and here is why. The obvious thing i'll get out of the way is the convenience of harvesting once a week and never replanting. Sure, that's nice and all. But the real reason Ancient Fruit in the greenhouse is better is to turn the fruit into seeds and plant them every Spring. Spring and Fall crops are absolute and utter garbage. Summer has Hops and DSG+Starfruit. Both are nice options. Spring and Fall are trash. Ancient Fruit is undeniably the best crop in the game for this reason.

The reason you rush a full Greenhouse of Ancient Fruit is to be able to plant them in the Spring. The only possible way to get 90M+ earnings by the end of Y2 is with Ancient Fruit. And the way you do that is by getting an Ancient seed in Spring Y1 (easy) and planting it ASAP, unlocking the Greenhouse ASAP (early Summer for Joja, early Fall for CC). And just multiplying seeds. You'll have your whole 3.3k ish tiles covered in Y2. If you plant Hops in your greenhouse, you're hindering the entire next year.

Now, ONCE you have a full farm of Ancient Fruit, seeds are no longer a problem, so you can change your greenhouse. But until then, Hops are definitely not the best crop. I can make 10M+ super easy in Y1 with Hops and 1.2k-1.5k kegs. Doesn't take much effort. 15M+ is hard, but I believe very possible. This is only possible with Hops (the best Y1 crop by far). But after Y1, Ancient Fruit is just objectively the best because of how terrible Spring and Fall are for other crops.

Doing the math for the best Greenhouse crop is nice, and I appreciate the fact that people care. But simple stats like Gold/Day, although they're useful, are very deceiving. You have to take other things into context.