Stop back-loading the fun parts of the game.

I just wanna say I find it very amusing that the last three posts here all involve Florans using the same foliage style in their avatars.

...four now.

 

Only reading the first page, I can already see an annoying pattern.

The OP says that the progression used by Chucklefish is bad design because it turns what should be an entertaining process into an obstacle. It doesn't fit the scope that the team originally intended, making the player feel trapped instead of free to explore. This isn't really a complaint about wanting shiny things without working towards them, it's about how the work should be enjoyable, not a chore.

In response, every person who criticizes the OP basically says "look, here are all the ways to get your shiny things, minus the chore. Now you have nothing to complain about." That's missing the entire point, though. Skipping the progression doesn't make the progression fun-- in many ways the easiest way to not feel like a certain game is a chore is to simply not play the game anymore. This doesn't improve the game! What -would- make the game better is a return to it's roots.

EDIT: Two hours is way too long to wait every time I make a new character. If I can beat Super Metroid in the time it takes to unlock FTL in Starbound, that's a problem.

 

Damn it DeadlyLuvdisc... i just pressed reply in the moment you Changed your Post... But i'm pretty much on the same Page with a few exeptions here and there.

I don't have any problem with the current Game as it is exept the horrible Boss in the Mines. But i belive this will get fixed eventually. A Checkpoint would make all the difference in my opinion.

Most of my Opinions of Starbound are colored by the Fact that i adore Terraria so much. There are no Missions in Terraria per se, but the Progression there dictates what to do next. I'm not saying "get rid of the Missions" but make the Exploration more meaningful. Like, use the Materials of the different Planets in more Blueprints (not just Furniture). A litte more Variety in craftable Weapons and Armor early on would make a huge difference in my opinion.

 

I decided that I didn't want to post an essay, and if I really wanted to list the things I felt like the developers had promised but failed to uphold, I'd end up writing one anyway. That, and I don't want to come off as whiny. It seems to be a crime punishable by death on these forums.

This times ten. Is it just me, or is being able to craft a sword vs an axe not really that meaningful of a difference? I'm not saying to take that option out, I'd just like to see something a little more special. Like the bow. That's a meaningful difference vs the melee stuff. In Terraria they caved on popular demand and added craftable staves in the early game and I think it makes a huge difference. Why not allow players to craft some rudimentary guns or staves in Starbound?

 

Actually there is nothing wrong or controversial about it. You are content with static platformer parts and seem to like them. I rarely play pure 2-D platformers so i can't judge if this part is bad or good compared to other platformers. But I'm pretty sure there are quite a handful of them - there are even ones published by CF like Risk of Rain so one can easily pick one to their one liking. On the other hand, 2-d sandboxes are pretty rare, and they are usually plagued by variety of problems - lack of money, solid team, their game vision is strange, etc. Compared to them Starbound looked pretty solid, so people expected it to turn into fine and versatile sandbox. Instead we good strong focus on static platformer and quests. And people are like: "Sure, platformer part is nice, but you can't beat pure dedicated platformers anyway - some had way better fighting system, some other - great gearing, looting and other have RPG-system, nicer enemies, etc... And story.. story may be good, but is worth the troubles and restrictions it brings? And solid story in a sandbox is hard - look at the AAA sandboxes - their story and it's implementation into game process suck, despite $$$ involved. And, btw, we originally wanted a sandbox, not a platformer with story and sandbox elements." Something like this....

 

Yeah, exactly. Like I said, I don't want there to be no progression. I like progression. I like the sense of having to work to accomplish things. I just feel like the work should be fun. ...and also, yeah, FTL should not take so long to unlock. I mean, having FTL and exploring the galaxy is seriously the entire point of the game. I don't even consider the game as having officially "started" until FTL is unlocked.

 

Weeeelll to be honest it doesn't take THAT long to unlock FTL. You should gather Resources for later anyway, so why not hang around in the current Solar System. It's not like you can't move between the Planets. And when the Crystal Boss is finally fixed you're good.

 

Totally agree with OP. Too many people don't get his point. The base core of the game should be fun, not a list of chores. Cheating, modding, skipping, whatever only shows that the base core of the game is lacking, and not working. It's not good game design.

Progression: mine -> craft armor -> beat boss -> repeat.

There is nothing wrong with this. However, the method is a chore. Tiers lock you out of exploring, and limit the player's ability to explore dangerous worlds on their own. So what if a tier 1 player visits a magma world? Some players enjoy the excruciating challenge. Let players figure out ways to overcome difficulties and challenges at low tiers. Don't block players in a box and force them to unlock new worlds. This kind of design functions well in linear, story-driven games, not sandbox games.

By allowing players to overcome challenges, it makes players feel smart and intuitive. That is rewarding. Locking players and "holding their hand" for the whole game makes players feel belittled.

 

It's a very valid criticism, and the mission progression system as it is now is pretty much awful. I love game design and programming 'cause I love watching people play and react to their experiences. It gratifies me incredibly even if it isn't a game I made. Starbound as is has huge chunks of gameplay that is extremely chore-like, and it is noticeable and really very apparent. But, let's keep in mind that this is still very early beta (and I still call it an alpha), and the right balance of progression and fun just isn't there yet. To me it feels like they're still trying stuff out mainly to see if the most basic mechanics are working right.

 

You have to consider the two all important facts in this matter:

1) There are no non-fun parts to starbound, all intended upcoming content and features are amazing, no exceptions.
2) They can only work on so much at one time, they have to decide what goes first, but this is fine, no matter what they choose all will be great because of #1 above. In the end all amazing things will be implemented and more amazing things will be introduced by the modding community over time.


PS: Also hold your horses about the quests....the entire quest system will be improved to allow for far greater quest variation but until they get it done all is great. Why? See numbers 1 and 2 above.

 

Your first point is blatant fanboyism and that isn't helpful. Some parts of this game are not enjoyable to a great deal of people. If we had more to do that could distract us from dig/kill, we may not feel like the game is a chore. I expect the changes to building mechanics to help.


Imagine if we had a reason to build and building meant managing our towns, claiming territory, assigning NPCs tasks, generating fuel/power cells to be used in machines all tied to building. More moving parts, elevators, pistons etc. Vehicle bays... more expanded farming machinery.... We could easily distract ourselves from the progression. We could take a break from it and not feel burned out by it, we could go back to it later. We'd also have a reason to keep some of the ore and other materials we find that we end up not needing.

 

They are reworking the quest system to allow for far greater quest variation, most current quests are placeholders so that should calm you down a bit. They will also bring two more progression paths besides combat/exploration and those are building and farming. As I said.....all intended upcoming features are amazing, no exceptions.

 

I was not talking about quests. I'm trying to explain that having to do the same type of thing over and over becomes a chore if there is little to distract us from that thing.

 

So switch things up....there's nothing nailing you to one activity and the cave systems are far more adequate for exploring underground without mining a whole lot. Especially when all the progression paths are in you'll be able to switch at any moment between them.....bored of exploring? Build something......then go farm some stuff......then go pick up on some new interesting quests.....go explore different biomes with unique awesome loot and minibiomes......etc. etc. etc. Right now there's some 150 different underground minidungeons to discover. We also have space stations coming too among other things. This game will certainly not lack diversity or nail you to repeating one chore.

And I haven't even mentioned cooking and crafting and all the trillion insanely amazing things that can be done with wiring and all the different kind of things you can build and on and on and on and on and on.......

If you're getting bored you only have yourself to blame.

 

Hey guys, if you don't mind, chill out. Everyone plays the game differently, and they come in with different expectations and different things they enjoy. That is okay. If you enjoy something, but someone else doesn't? That's okay for both of you. State your piece ONCE and back off. You don't need to defend if you do or don't enjoy doing something. If you don't enjoy something, but someone else does? That's still okay. State what you don't enjoy, maybe discuss about what could be changed so that you would enjoy it.

There is no blame or chore or other crap unless people bring that crap in here. Please don't bring that crap in here.

 

I was merely pointing out how many kinds of things there are to be done.....saying that "having to do the same type of thing over and over becomes a chore if there is little to distract us from that thing" is plain 1000% wrong......he/she didn't say he/she didn't enjoy doing most things(which would be a whole different matter) but apparently lacked awareness of all the game's features and that is something that in this case resulted in the unaware player being bored......and blaming the the game/CF for it......I didn't bring blame in the argument, blame was already here, I merely pointed it where it belongs.

Oh and we also have fossils coming for the ardent role-playing archaeologists to discover, recover and display in their very own museums.

 

I agree with OP 100%, I still haven't unlocked FTL and I'm already bored.

Prior to the update, my character had end-tier armor and weapory but I still had fun exploring the planets, building, making my own villages out of pillaged npc furniture, etc.
I preferred when the progression system was more like Terraria's, I.E dig for ores to get better ores to craft into better things which THEN unlocks new tiers. It rewards exploration.
This? Nah.

Spend 5 minutes on planet, go to ship. Upgrade matter manipulator. Spend 5 more minutes on planet. Back to ship. Go to outpost. Some person wants you to catch a bug which SEEMS like it should be a sidequest but it's in fact a required part of the game. Get net, get bug, back to outpost. Now some person wants coffee. Back to planet, get beans, back to outpost, OH LOOK we need a glass too, back to planet, back to outpost, etc etc etc. (also I really wish you could just beam from the outpost instead of having to run back to the gate. My laptop lags HARD and walking from one side to the other takes way longer than it should but that's for another topic)
It feels more like "fetch quest: the game" more than a sandbox space adventure.

And let's not forget the complete lack of relation of one quest to another. I spent 10 minutes with a friend trying to figure out why the guy was giving her the quest for the mining facility but just gave me generic NPC dialog despite both of us having full steel armor. Turns out I had to do the bug and coffee quests first. There was no inkling that any of these were related in the slightest.

It may just be because I was playing terraria recently but idk. While terraria doesn't have a "story" in the same way that starbound does, it still has a strong sense of progression. You start out with almost nothing and have to mine ores to get better and better items. While mining said ores, you can come across different biomes and chests that contain nifty stuff to give you an extra edge. However, the progression system isn't as locked down as starbound is now. For example...
Just started a new terraria character? Want to run headfirst into corruption or crimson without making any armor or weapons other than what you're given at the beginning? Go for it! You'll probably die, but who cares! You're free to explore and if you somehow manage to succeed in whatever you set out to do, you're rewarded with the satisfaction that you triumphed and maybe rewarded with loot too, i.e whatever was in that chest at the bottom of the corruption pit. You can charge right into the jungle like reckless maniac if you so wish, you can hunt down a sky island through pure determination (and a lot of dirt), etc.

The previous incarnation of starbound gave me the same kind of vibes as terraria. Hey, look, that planet is slightly more dangerous! You want to go to it? Yes? You have coal? Yes? Well then go for it, nothing's stopping you! Now you're blocked off by nonsense fetch quests and a boss that you can't strategically plan out (I remember building arenas before, both in terraria and starbound) and can't progress unless you either A: slog through it or B: cheat. And that just doesn't feel right for a sandbox game.

We don't want "everything handed to us right from the start", we want the option to choose what we do even if that means flying to a high-level planet for funsies (and maybe weapons and ore) and likely getting our butts kicked in the process.

EDIT: Something that I meant to put down but forgot: I think the problem that a lot of people are having IS the fact that starbound progression is now so locked and specific. Take the quest relativity for example, where I had to complete some seemingly unrelated quests to "unlock" a quest that I was qualified for already. I, personally, would prefer it if you could just jump right in if you have what you need. Have steel armor already, maybe from a friend who has an alloy furnace/crafting table? Sweet, you'll be able to do [insert quest here] without having to do all of the other junk first.

Here's another "Terraria vs Starbound progression" example.
Terraria's "ideal" progression system: Mine and explore > Fight Cthulhu > get gold armor/pick/weapons > fight EoW/Brain > obtain demonite/crimtane > explore jungle > dig down to the underworld > obtain hellstone, molten armor/weapons > raid dungeon > explore both ends of map by now > kill WoF > destroy demon altars etc

Do you have to do them in order? Nope. As far as I know you can go the entire game without fighting cthulhu unless he randomly spawns, since the EoW/Brain also drop demonite/crimtane. I recently went through the game with a friend and didn't touch the jungle until hardmode, so that can effectively be skipped as well. Though you have to defeat Skeletron, you don't HAVE to explore the dungeon unless you want to (or want to get the mechanic npc) and that can effectively be skipped until "endgame" as well.

Now, with Starbound's current progression system, you're limited until you do the quests. It's not so much about "do I want to do this quest/help this npc/collect these items" as much as it is "I have to do this quest/help this npc/collect these items". It's fine to have a main questline for progression but for the love of space please tie them together and make them less fetch questy. The NPCS could also be more likable-- The npc that gives you the coffee quest, for instance. That could be FAR less of an irritating quest if you were just given a list of what to collect right off the bat: coffee, cup, spoon. Instead you go out to get the coffee only to be rewarded with "You'll need to do better than that for a tech card". "I might actually be able to drink that coffee you gave me. Maybe then I'll give you the Tech Card". Okay, you get the mug, then what? "I really need to stir it before I'm satisfied though. Talk to me again when you're ready to finish this up". Okay, ANOTHER trip back to my ship because I can't spawn items in the outpost. Is it just me, or does it seem like this npc is a little too... Demanding? This single quest alone could've been slightly more enjoyable if A: less sassy dialog [nitpicky but oh well] and B: having you to collect everything AT ONCE rather than having to repeatedly leave and come back. It's pointless filler, it's not fun.

//end rant-ish rambling EDIT: FOR REAL THIS TIME

 

If you want to explore, what you're looking for is Terraria.
Starbound's ship is basically just the world selection screen. It even comes after selecting your character, just like Terraria.

Terraria has more interesting worlds than Starbound.

Starbound is basically just made for repetitive mining and the awesome Erchius Mining place. If you don't like any of those 2 things, you should be in the land with creatures who eat worlds.

 

For me the main problem with the quests right now was, when I realized I had to do it all again the same way for a second (third...) hero. All the way from the broken ship, chop-a-tree, how-to-cook-a-decent-steak... to "Oh nice coffee, but get me a mug, will ya?" and all that. For maybe just to see how a Novakid instead of Floran plays out, that's a huge drawback. Maybe later there will be an option to skip the tutorial quests, that would be nice.

 

A lot of people complaining about the progression feeling like "a chore" are coming from earlier builds, the Koala-series, before the whole "repairing your ship" aspect was implemented. Few, if any, bother to consider why it was implemented to begin with.

Tiy stated, somewhere early in development, that he didn't want to dump everything on a new player all at once. For those who've been playing since release, who remembers the initial build of the game? Where you could encounter Thermonuclear Death Bird Flocks and enemies that could chase you forever? Where your starting world could spawn with trees that didn't even drop wood, making it a laborious experience to dig out enough coal to get offworld, because ships could be fueled on coal (oir charcoal from burning wood) back then? Where your starter planet could be home to enemies that could very much one-shot you, via attacks like Bloody Vomit or Shocking Bolt? Where starting planets could be loaded with poison instead of water and have acid rain for weather?

Is that not a chore? Is that not an excruciating experience that sucks the fun out of the game before it begins? It certainly was for me, because that was my first experience with the game. I almost stopped playing then and there, to wait for a more complete release.

So then steps were taken to stop throwing new players in the deep end of the pool from the word "go." Starting planets had to have wood. Starting planets had to have water instead of poison or oil. Starting planets had to have nonhostile weather. Starting planets had to be forest world or grassland worlds, with farmable terrain and enough trees to be useful. The Thermonuclear Death Birds were nerfed to the point of tolerability. Monsters were forbidden to have stupidly-dangerous exotic attacks on early worlds.

People still complained though. Rather than complaining about the difficulty, they complained about the lack of direction or structure. They complained that progressing through the tiers was just the samey process of accumulating enough resources to build a boss summoner, summoning a boss, and then killing that boss to get some item that's used to build the next tier of crafting station so that you can make the next tier of gear and the next boss spawner.

So direction was given. You start out the game and you're given a goal - fix your ship. The damage limits the scope of the game to one world. Then you fix the thrusters and the scope expands, to a whole system. This introduces you to planets with different environments, and stronger monsters. You're introduced to the outpost and quests - first one quest, then more as you get the hang of it. Finally, you do the first mission, beat your first boss, fix your FTL drive, and finally the game opens up - you have a universe.

The reason why this feels like a step back for you is because you're used to having more. You're used to not being as on-rails as this. And I'll admit, maybe with the whole 'obtain nanosuit, immediately be ready for a new environment' progression system they've got now, it feels like a bit more of the same trap they fell into with the koala builds. But I really don't think people can say it's worse as there's more to do now - progression isn't tied solely arond beating the next boss. If anything, bosses have taken a significant step back in importance, and questing has stepped up to fill the role.

So okay, you're used to having more. And maybe repeating the same first few steps up to the first boss and fixing your FTL drive can be tiresome. But these initial steps are useful to new players, as they serve as an extended sort of tutorial to ease them into new concepts a few at a time. So what's a developer to do? Well, the most obvious answer is to allow experienced players, those with multiple characters, to skip some of the early steps and get into the FTL saddle faster. That's where Infinity Express comes in. For a small outlay in pixels, your more experienced characters can purchase the plot coupons necessary for your newly-made characters to skip large portions of the progression, particularly the Erchius Mining Facility and Dreadwing. Then it's just a matter of stashing these things on the starting world, which is now shared between all your characters in singleplayer, and you can skip about as far as you please and get to the parts of the game you like.

So yes, going through the progression and being limited in where you can travel is necessary the first time, but the second time and beyond, you can earn your way past it with pixels and forethought by using your existing characters. IMO, this is the best compromise between providing direction and goals for new players without overwhelming them, and allowing more experienced players to get to the parts of the game that interest them most.