Steam and negative reviews V2

I'm going to disagree. Not necessarily that it has chased people away from early access, but that it's a shame.

If anything, it's a good thing.

Because, well, actually let's just go here:

Every time 'average Joe' or 'average guy' is mentioned here it is either directly preceding or after a description of someone who shouldn't be playing Early Access.

If you bought an early access game, whether Starbound or Edge of Space, or whatever other game, to play the game and have fun while dodging some bugs you are doing it wrong.

If you are the average joe, you shouldn't be playing Early Access. It's a bad use of your money and your time and I'm totally okay with those people realizing that and not doing it anymore.

You should buy an Early Access game if you are willing to follow the news, if you are willing to engage with developers in a civil manner, if you are willing to research the hell out of what you are buying, if you have some knowledge of game design and think deeper about how systems interconnect and affect how players interact with the world than a shallow 'is it fun right now'.

People who aren't these things getting Early Access games cause issues, more for the industry as a whole than for any particular game. They incentivize releasing half (or less) finished games to make early profit, even when it isn't beneficial to do so. They propagate the same awful things that pre-ordering shit like that awful Alien game or War Z propagates.

When you buy Early Access, you're giving money to devs on the promise of a game AND agreeing to help them get there. If you're not a person who is willing to research how likely that promise is to come to fruition, or to uphold your part of the agreement. . . Don't buy them. You'll end up giving money to people who don't deserve it and potentially hurting development for people that do.

That said, I agree that CF hasn't run this thing very well. In the same vein of users who shouldn't buy Early Access there are developers who shouldn't run them, and, as far as I can tell, CF is one.

If you're a developer who doesn't absolutely need the extra money to finish your game (SB was, as memory serves, fully funded before starting Early Access), if you're a developer caving to user demands for Early Access (looking at you veteran forumers), if you're a dev who does not have a flexible, but complete, development map that you are not willing to drastically change (I've talked about how CF seems to have thrown out their dev map shortly into Early Access before), if you are unwillingly or unable to meaningfully discuss game design decisions with your user base (Tiy had only really popped into reddit and for a long time Starbounder got information later, if at all, and very minimal back and forth with devs), if you're unable to sort through criticism and know what needs to be addressed for your final product and what doesn't, and in what order to do these things (playing with monster spawn early in the beta/alpha means that either they didn't know they were reworking the entire spawn system, which means bad project mapping, or they were wasting time making it more playable when they should have been working on core mechanics). . . If you're any of these things you should probably hold off for a full release.

As far as I can tell CF was all of these things, but seems to be working on correcting some of these issues, by becoming more insular. This will probably get us a better game in the long run as they seem to be following a proper project map, now, and spending less time make areas of play that will be completely over written more playable in the short term. Actual progress seems to be being made now.

Unfortunately, until they get this next big update out, and unless they can follow it up with more numerous updates while still sticking to their plan, there's not much purpose to this Early Access.

 

I agree with most of what you said, but Starbound was not fully funded before 'kickstart / pre-order / whatever'. They thought it was, some devs were seriously in debt and working two jobs. Chucklefish specifically opened pre-orders to address the debt, two job devs, and to ensure more money to hire more devs.

 

The last thing I'm going to say on the matter is simply this: The only thing happening with these reviews that I disapprove of are the blatant forms of misinformation that are strewn about. Things like claiming they went on vacation after publishing the first Early Access build, or that they ban anyone who speaks ill of CF (even if it's constructive), or that they used company funds to buy a dog (since it was actually Molly's puppy). The facts aren't gathered in one place and it's hard to stay informed when updates are spread over multiple media, but part of being a competent reviewer is knowing your subject matter. If you don't know the whole story with the Devs, just leave it out. If people hate the game as is because it's partially finished, doesn't meet their expectations, or because it's lacking giant mechanized cats, that's their prerogative. It's the people claiming the Devs don't care, or that they're running away with your money, or that they have a secret island they bought with your pre-order monies... that's harmful to everyone ><

 

Well I said as memory serves. That was a long time ago and I was thinking about things like this: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/02/s...ct=no&oswrr=3&oswrtu=QIkvigeX8oZcIl6EEM4tag== which predate selling Early Access, and remembering a lot of pressure on them from the fan base, before I joined the forums to release an unfinished, but playable, build.

It's possible they did need the money and I was wrong on that point, in which case, my bad, but I stand by them not seeming to be very prepared to run Early Access.

 

I'm about to go to sleep and skimmed this thread. I'll say some thoughts I've had on some of these subjects. Think of this as a Blog of sorts



On the matter of funding, here's how it played out from my perspective (as someone who's been developing Starbound the longest besides Tiy, I joined in May 2011).

When I joined there was zero funding. I was aware of this. Everyone was. We were basically a group of people who wanted to make a game. We also saw it as a sort of investment and hoped the game made enough money to, you know, live .
In fact up until the pre-order there was no significant funding for the team (we got a bit from something but it went where needed and was limited). I saw $0 for over 2 years until the pre-order.

I'd hope people could understand sometimes peeps can only go on so long without getting paid. We had people investing their time and savings into this for a long period. The resources were thinning, morale was falling and developing a game when we all live in different parts of the globe kind of sucked . I was living with my parents the entire time myself and kind of wanted to change that and maybe pay my own healthcare bills or something crazy like that.


The pre-order was done really to address the resource issues (as well as letting more of our people work full time instead of part time). Without the pre-order Starbound may have been in jeopardy and at least would have come a lot slower. The pre-order happened and essentially Starbound was funded more or less and people could focus on the game. It rose morale. It was good. I hate to think of the possibilities if we didn't do that pre-order.


We promised a Beta in 2013 and came through. The Early Access further funded Starbound to the point where you just plain don't have to worry about funding. Maybe it we all died suddenly Starbound would die with us but that's pretty unlikely.


The Early Access also opened up the doors to opening a new office and much of the team moving to the UK so we could work together in person. This slowed us down temporarily but we've become more efficient and effective despite what some may believe . Morale is pretty high (though being humans sometimes the negative things can get to some of us). We're also continuing to hire new people and increasing the size of the company though this isn't as fast of a process as you might think. We're going through a lot of applications and portfolios.


All in all from my perspective I think things are going well. I see the pre-order and Early Access as necessary to get Starbound released and get it developed quicker.


To some people Starbound cannot be made fast enough. This is probably the source of much of the negative reviews if I were to guess, especially lately since we've slowed down our updates. I'd let it get to me but we're going as fast as humanly possible without sacrificing our sanity. Starbound is funded and will be done, it's just going to take some time.




On the subject of updates our plans have simply changed which I understand would annoy some people. I know you heard about Daily updates and stuff (which you're kind of getting now with the nightlies). But we felt in the long run the quality of the content would be better if we did a bigger patch. The small updates were getting to the point of being pretty insignificant in my opinion and I felt like we were racing to make sub-par content so we can get a patch out fast enough. I hope our next (biggest?) patch will please people.

Again, we're working as fast as humanly possible. I understand why it could look like we're being lazy or something since the patches have slowed but I assure you that's not the case. I think our new weekday updates have made some realize this. But we can't please everyone (like I recently learned of someone who thinks Chucklefish and Starbound is a scam lol).



Right now time is our only enemy. We've made some incorrect estimates in the past but that's why they're called estimates and they were never made as an attempt to be dishonest. And if I learned anything from companies like Blizzard it's that... honestly a lot of people (including us) sometimes kind of suck at time estimates . But we'd rather have a better game than a rushed game.

 

This it the kind of honesty and speaking from the heart that I think a lot of people would appreciate hearing.

 

I am surprised to see where some people in this discussion are coming from. Some of the games take years between release and final version, that may or may not end up disappointing (Duke Nukem). Big developers are known for dragging development on for years (Versus XIII or whatever they will eventually name it). However, I see this as a natural part of being a hardcore gaming fan, you get on the bandwagon early and sometimes are disappointed with the results, or lack of thereof.

You make a great point, that early access isn't for everyone and that not all people understand the purpose of early access. It theoretically gives hardcore fans a unique opportunity to test a game as it's being built, contribute to it's development, and help the developers remain afloat until the final version is complete and is available to the mainstream audiences.

[Personal opinion of the situation]
By releasing the game via Steam, the developers probably just wanted to minimize the likelihood of piracy by providing the biggest possible market a way to purchase the game. However, Steam is a major platform, and Valve took time and effort heavily advertising Starbound around the time the early access released (The main reason I am here), probably resulting in many more early sales than Chucklefish expected. As the result, the CF forums and Steam Reviews were flooded with individuals expecting the game to be near-complete and fully enjoyable within several months.

I applaud CF for working through the situation that arose (shitstorm) and thriving to make Starbound better. I am sure once they are reveal 1.0 majority of the people complaining about politics, bans, and lack of information will shift focus to the actual game. I also don't think it's fair to review a game before 1.0 and is a disservice to the devs even if you don't like the game in it's current state. By pushing away other buyers and overly being negative you are taking away devs' desire and ability to improve the game, and this could result in a crappier end product (I know, paradox, right?).

In the meantime, we users have 2 options: to stop playing until release or go with the flow and help the development:
If you are willing to wait, you essentially get 2 games for the price of one. You already played the buggy, unpolished beta that you have already complained about. Thus, when the game releases you essentially think of it as a free copy of Starbound 2, and start from scratch.
Or, continue staying active on the forums, report bugs, and possibly even mod. Enjoy the development experience and help mold Starbound into the game you would love to play. When it releases, play the game you had some active input in.

I personally choose the first option. I don't necessarily have the time or patience, so I enjoy other games while waiting for release and lurking on forums. As a supporter of several indie projects, I am doing the same with several other games. I want to see Starbound made, and would love to play it when it's done, but bashing Starbound, Chucklefish or fellow gamers will not bring me one step closer to that goal.

 

I'd just like to take a moment to say a couple things, the first of which is that you've always been one of the exceptions when I (and others) talk about a lack of direct communication with the developers, and I just want to thank you for that. The forums aren't always a nice place for your kind to visit, but you're around and respond enough to make a positive impact despite that.

So thanks.

The other is that I do think what you guys are doing now is a definite step in the right direction, and I hope you keep stepping that way.

I, personally, am okay with waiting however long for SB. I don't think I'm in the majority here, and I'll definitely be poking around the nightlies and giving input on things you're doing there once I have a computer again next week. . . But, I paid $15 for Early Access and I've enjoyed, despite my criticism, the ~200 hours I've played.

Trust that if I, at least, leverage complaints with how things are done it's because I want to do my part as an Early Access player and try to help you guys make the best game you can. None of it is meant in a mean spirited fashion.

I also think that other people that criticize really just want it to turn out well, too. Maybe not all of them. Maybe some just want it now. Maybe some are just wrong about what would make it good (but not me. My ideas are always great).

But I'd like you, and the other devs, to take to heart that we care about the game, and, if some of us are dicks, that's why.

Hopefully that will make it a little easier for you all to stomach all the negativity and take whatever actual good ideas are nestled in it.

 

Starbound negative reviews. Why they be haters

 

because not everyone likes everything .-.
let's not turn this into a "they're dumb for hating the thing I like" argument, please =P

 

Steam reviews are bad because the mods on all the official StarBound boards are overzealous in their censorship of negative opinions of StarBound. They can't censor Steam reviews so all the negativity goes that way. Pretty simple actually, people will find a way to make their negative opinions heard and after eight months without a decent update there is understandably going to be a lot of negative opinions. Especially when the game was marketed as both being near completion as well as being a beta, when in fact it is more like a nice tech demo or an early alpha.

When pointed this out with a similar post on the Starbound steam forums I was subsequently banned for one day.

 

I have been watching this situation unfold for quite sometime, and in my opinion its pretty sad. With Tiy talking of closing the starbound steam forums all together, and now all this focus on "fixing" the steam reviews is the company grasping at straws. The trolling and hatred in the reviews and all forums don't belong, and should always be taken care of that is expected. But it seems this damage control is just a means to end all negativity to this game at all. These forums started getting a iron grip on the negativity when the red warning/banned shaming started and it has reached lengths that made feel a bit of cringe being involved with this whole project. Which begs the question "how did we get here"

Everyone wants this game to be finished, even the most vile and loudest trolls, they all bought this game because they had interest in some aspect of it. Ive seen other companies even comment on the same situation, I remember a Riot dev saying along the lines of "an angry player even if too brash has a reason why they are disappointed/upset, if they can adjust their attitude we can help with their problem"

 

According to math, you're saying the game hasn't changed since it was released. Blatantly untrue...

EDIT:
See, your post is the epitome of the problem. You spout "facts" that aren't true and don't provide any real constructive feedback. No one marketed the game as being "near completion" (the giant EARLY ACCESS banner might have been an indication). CF and the Mods aren't out on some fascist censorship trip, trying to keep your (and all the other pissed off people's) opinions concealed; the internet is far too big for that to work. It's clear why you were banned if your post there was as belligerent as the one here is.

 

I've been on and off watching both the forums here and on Steam to get my own general opinion. I won't say who's right and who's wrong, I'm the kind of person who tends to stay away from conflict and I'd rather not make things more difficult for the mods. That said however, I do feel like a few of the steam users who use those forums are generally upset. I don't think that either side should really go yelling "Troll in the dungeon!" when faced with someone of a different opinion. I think that what Tiy did today changed at least a couple minds, maybe not from the more vocal users, but a few nonetheless. Maybe closing the Steam forums isn't the best decision, but I can see why it's crossed Tiy's mind. I think, in my own opinion as someone who's not the best at estimating the reactions of others and therefore wouldn't make a good PR person, that the Steam forums should stay. No matter how vile they get at times. It wouldn't do anything but give people more of a reason to go "See? I was right!". It might breed a little more hostility is what I'm trying to say.

In a way, I read the comments there and then look at the game I spent over 100 hours in and sometimes I don't feel like they're talking about the same game I played. I want to see Starbound grow, it's a game I was drooling over since it was announced. I can't personally run the Nightly Builds based on what I've heard (Using a pretty generic laptop). But seeing the devs post pictures gets me excited. I can wait for the game to be updated, I don't think that two days ago I would've said the same. Two days ago I'd be angry at the devs for not putting out an update in a few months. I've played enough of the game to put it down for a while, I have no doubt that when it is updated again, I'll sit there playing mindlessly while my girlfriend wonders what I'm doing with my life and why she's with me at all. I do agree with some of the posters here, that maybe there should be an update put out with what's done now, save for the things that are too early in progress to actually do that with. I'm not sure where the devs are, from what I see with all the overhauls, maybe releasing a patch to subside anger with some of the fans just wouldn't work.

As for the Mods, well, I don't have an inkling of how to change the opinions of the Steam users. I think there's a lot of personal vendettas coming from them. Games can be changed to make people happy, people can't be changed to make people happy. Bad communication between players and Mods seems to be the problem. However, like I said before, I think that what happened today was a good step on both sides.

-nyan_cyrax
^This

(I never use forums so I have absolutely no idea how to do the fancy things everyone else has.)

Hopefully I didn't get on anyone's nerves with this, I just wanted to share my own thoughts having seen both sides of the community.

 

Some steam reviews are good, negative or positive. I enjoyed reading some in depth positive reviews, but also found some of the negative reviews surprising.

You see, I assume these are real, but this review is quite unsettling. Stuff like this (if it is true) is stuff people should know about. ( I am not a fan of the person being rude about it, and calling CF rotten devs.)

Just my thought.

 

There's no point in really humoring him, almost every post he's made is a snide swipe at CF in some manner, he's not listening, just dropping in to say something nasty and then fly off again to laugh as we argue over it.

 

And it's important to note that if you're a huge Starbound fanboi and start being a huge asshole to people who might not like Starbound as much as you, you're gonna get banned. Disliking Starbound is a valid opinion and constructive criticism is always appreciated.

 

C'mon, please. You promised full release in 2013.... I fully understand, what changing release date was not some kind of scam as some ppl want to believe,

but because you really want to make game better with all new money you get, and other reason you mentioned yourself.
Ppl, even we critics, got over it already, but some of us remain negative just because they see difference between facts and that you saying.
Or i really don't get something about this whole situation.

So very true, if ppl feel they get different treatment, their toxicity level rise, and even quite and constructive thread spiral into something unsightly.