Steam and negative reviews V2

Stay on task guys -- keep cool.

It depends on the context really. Are they calling you an idiot? your post? how much condescension did they put into it? Insulting is not allowed -- but sometimes it's done so without any actual insulting context. (that probably makes 0 sense)

I consider a thread to get out of hand when some of these criteria are met

• a number of users have been banned or warned
  
• a number of users are having arguments instead of discussions
• the reports in a thread have a sudden patterned rise
• the original discussion point is completely lost

 

From what Ive seen,you havent upset anyone or cause any trouble from your last post,so relax a bit,eh?

Regarding idiots,when I said they existed in the Steam Forums,was I saying a lie?Calling someone a Idiot,whilst not something to be said lightly,if its true,why censor it?

Can you show examples in this thread of missusing of the world idiot,or any insult in a context of a angry,non constructive rant?Please do show.

 

• They complained when updates were every few days but didn't have a ton of content. Can't have fast updates with massive amounts of content.
• No one is debating the second point, which is why they've opted to stop giving deadlines they know they won't meet
• The third point will be fixed when they push a stable update.
• Fast and Thick was said by Tiy one time and people have latched onto it like it's a life preserver in a vast sea of nothingness. It's a comment that was made in error that he's publicly stated was a mistake to say. This also goes for "break-neck speeds".
• Belligerence is the majority of the reason that censorship happens. It's not to stop people from speaking their mind, it's to make sure they speak their mind constructively and without malice.

 

@drakd @yclatious Nope. do so in PM or report it. Don't derail the discussion. Thank you.

 

On the plus side, no matter what you think about Starbound or where it might go, at least it's not as big of a mess as that awful Yogscast thing.

 

I think everyone knows my stance and I was just saving people from hearing more... but if that is what you want, I will expound next time.

• I don't think anyone would argue that fast updates usually mean smaller changes, but when you deliver three or four small updates in a row with the largest change being some lua / asset changes to add weather effects which can literally be done by mostly copy pasta... there is a problem.
• Zero deadline is just as bad as a missed deadline. Deadlines aren't easy, but I can't tell my boss, "you'll get the work when I'm done" and expect to not get laid off / fired the following week.
• There are plenty of changes that can be pushed as a stable update now. The problem is that in order to cherry pick those changes and port them to the older code base would remove resources from actual development. Chucklefish has purposely kept their resources small because they don't want to deal with communication overhead, which is a lame excuse when most companies must do so to thrive and they've already reaped the benefit of millions of dollars.
• If you can't stand by the promise... don't make it so vehemently. Better yet, hire a PR person to handle those things for you... how many more mistakes or chances does he get?

 

What it comes down to is:

It's fine if you don't like the game as it is. It's fine if you don't think development is going in an acceptable direction. But don't use these things to tell people not to buy the game.
I've seen people on Steam say that "they're only doing this so that nobody will make a mistake by buying the game". I've also seen people say that "they will go out of their way to see Chucklefish fail". And after serving a tour of duty on the Steam forums, I can honestly say that a lot of these people aren't mad at the game. They just hate Chucklefish. And nothing can change that.

 

• What makes you think that it was that simple to add weather effects?
• I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement. The problem isn't missing deadlines, it's the crazed reaction people have to even the slightest deviation from said deadlines. In order to mitigate that they've removed the root of the problem. Overly ambitiously making deadlines is far worse than not making them.
• How should they go about picking and choosing what to push? What about changes that are dependent on other changes? The code isn't completely segmented (especially since this is written in C++ and not some of the more modern, more modular languages).
• The word "promise" is thrown around a lot. Is a comment in passing about a potential feature a "promise"? Is a mention of a potential deadline a "promise"? Is a flat out commitment a "promise"?

 

Why? If i bought something i don't like for one reason or another, i'm not allowed to advice other ppl not to buy it while stating my arguments against said product? Or advice ppl to wait until said product is polished?

For a lot of ppl Chucklefish=Starbound, as right now it's only one game they made. And besides, if i , f.e., don't like Windows Vista, i'm not allowed to criticize Microsoft or Microsoft CEO for Vista flaws? It doesn't work this way, for most time if there is problems, both the creation and creator is blamed altogether.

 

here is my one problem about the steam reviews anyone can up or down vote them even people that don't own the game on steam if you look at the top 3 reviews and look at the discussion for the reviews you can see all they did was link it to their buddy's to get the reviews to the top. for now i will just wait for the game to get update and read a paid review because they are neutral. I personally avoid the steam forums idc to read pages of quotes and how they agree with each other and anyone who disagrees gets their disagreement picked through with a fine tooth comb its like attack mode over there.

 

Saying "Windows Vista is flawed and here is why..." is different than saying "Windows Vista sucks, death to BIll Gates and Microsoft".

 

I think the "They Just Hate Chucklefish" is a weak argument overall but it is a specific instance we (mods) unfortunately see a true pattern in.

If I ban "John Doe" for posting some ridiculous flame thread -- there have been many instances where "John Doe" pops up on Steam with a nasty discussion or review because "Chucklefish censored my thread!". What's really bad is this isn't an example of 1 user. And this sort of behavior has given rise to "moderation baiting" in order to "prove" that "censorship" is happening. It's a headache really -- because if they actually had something to say, they could have said it and had it seen -- you know, so long as it didn't break almost every forum rule.

Like; it's one thing to say "Chucklefish, I don't agree with these decisions: here's why" and "Fack u chukellfeesh u mak dum desishenz"

On top of this. I don't especially like that the Starbound reviews are -weakly- about Starbound and more about moderation or Chucklefish. Sure, criticism of CF should be somewhere -- but the review section of Starbound is not that place. So say someone wants to know how Starbound holds up to Terraria (as it's the most common comparison) clicking on a negative review to go over the cons of the game isn't actually helpful when the review reads like:

 

Sigh.... i already said what i actually read a lot of "most useful" Steam review from half past a year, so you can't fool me into thinking they all (or most part of it) are just blind hate.

You should forgive us... We are only poor toxic idiots, please don't ask too much from us.Especially on topic of censoring and selective moderation, because it's totally stupid accusation. I'm right?

 

• The code between fog vs rain vs acid rain vs hail vs .... ad infinitum... is practically the same. The biggest difference is a graphic / art and whether there is damage associated with the weather, outside of that, any other change is miniscule or non-existant. Also, how does weather effects turn into designing a weather system? They're of course not on the same scale. You do understand the difference between weather effects and the weather system, right?
• Again, deadlines are not easy... but they are an integral part of being a professional employee / company.
  
• It's not simple, especially if there are massive differences, but it is possible. I do it daily with upstream patches into the linux kernel and other projects. As I said, it would take time and resources away from actual development, but when your community wants an update and you promised fast updates, not once but twice, the excuse that you don't have the resources because you're afraid to tackle communication overhead after receiving millions of dollars is lame.
• "I will have xyz done by weeks end." the word promise isn't anywhere in that statement, but if I said that to my boss he'd be well within his right to demand xyz at weeks end, especially if I didn't tell him there would be expected delays. If I came to him on the due date and said, "yeah... I ran into these issues and it won't be done today." his response would be, "why wasn't I told sooner? Why wait to the last minute?"

Utterly wrong... if you take people's money, you must accept their voice as a minimum even if you don't want to listen to it or pay attention.

 

• Way to argue semantics. I was referring to a system to display weather effects. That system wasn't in place before they pushed those effects.
• Early access is the wild-west of game development, it's new territory and they're entitled to make some mistakes in how they handle communication and deadlines. They can (and probably will) learn from the mistakes they do make, but the community has to be willing to accept that they're making an effort and things won't be fixed immediately.
• Keeping a small team isn't completely about nullifying communication gaps. Adding more people won't immediately make them more productive.
• We aren't their bosses. At the best we can be considered investors or end users. Most publicly held companies in the US are obligated to provide financials and shareholder voting for issues, and that's it. In your scenario, you promised something to your boss, someone who has authority over you and your job, which makes it very different from this situation.

Also, you're utterly wrong. People purchased a product knowing the risks and no amount of complaining, screaming, or yelling will change that. There are far worse things that could happen than a delay in the production release of the game.

 

Yeah, ppl who pre-pushcashed before EA and beta-thing included? They bought a pre-order, not a EA game, nor a beta. They bought a pre-order for full release in 2013. So, please, for a sake of rational discussion don't flock everyone together.

 

Chucklefish didn't take anyone's money. People willingly paid for a product being offered to them. Two different things.
A preorder isn't really a purchase, anyways - it's more like a donation with a reward. Give someone enough money for a copy of their game, and you'll be funding their company so they can continue to make the game, and you'll get a copy of their game in return.

 

Thank you for trying to invalidate my argument by claiming it's something that it's not. (and the word you're looking for is "herd")

Also Early Access was always part of their pre-order system. They just didn't release it for Early Access until December 7th.

 

That is one thing many people don't realize in the moment they do that, I presume. If it weren't for that kind of money, developers would have to work on the game not knowing how it sells (or if at all). Now with people giving money and saying "I trust you and will buy the game for sure" the have some security - enabling them to work without having to thing about money so much.

I did it like many others and put trust in CF and the game. Now it is CFs turn to live true to their words and finish the game. What does it really matter, if it takes a little longer - as long as we get what we hoped for.

Giving that money (kind of) in advance however does neither make us shareholders, nor enable us to call names. It _does_ enable us to ask questions - but it is really helpful, to ask these questions over and over? And (having read this in the STEAM forum) what do people really expect, when they asked for answers - and get them today together with apologies - and then say "but an apology is not enough"? What else - some developers head on a spike? Oh please let us take a deep breath... please let us give CF time to do as they promised.

 

Sigh.....
http://web.archive.org/web/20130420182848/http://playstarbound.com/faq/
Full release in 2013... beta BEFORE release... EA isn't mentioned at all....