So, is this game even actually progressing? (Long)

more analogies!

 

Someone here pushed my buttons, so I apologize for this long post:

Why do you assume I don't know what a writers, or an artists', life is like? It's a silly and rash assumption.

Writers and programmers again have a lot in common. Do you think it's easy for a programmer to just up and write his own programs without getting a penny in return, paying it all out of his own pocket, and then publishing it to masses who don't even see it?
Like writers, most programmers need publishers. Those publishers then do the exact same thing to programmers that they do to writers - Ask you when it's done and if you don't know they tell you they'll find someone else.

To be your own publishers, to be either an "indie" programmer or writer doesn't matter the difference - the point is you do things without a publisher and pay for your own work with your own money - in exchange for the fact you don't have a bunch of absurd morons who don't understand your craft telling you when THEY think it should be done. As if they actually had any clue.

Why do you assume my comparison was not fair? That I somehow romanticized things? You are wrong.

Except "CF" has made a massive amount of money on their own merits. So you would be wrong again.

And you're not Sherlock Holmes. Is there a point to your fluff?

Way to contradict yourself and generally make no sense.......... *shakes head disapprovingly*

If you make the best pair of shoes in town, why is that not creative and honorable? You're wrong again - and not only that but you're also being quite rude to shoe-makers. I resent your ignorance on this matter.

OH WOW. GOOD FOR THEM.
Seriously though, more meaningless fluff. This doesn't mean anything. You have made literally no logical connection here. What you're doing is trying to usher in a pathos argument, one that is nothing but emotional appeal. It is not working, as I do not easily sway to emotions.

"CF" IS finishing their product - as you can visibly observe yourself if you had even tried for a single moment.
And the "client" DOES have their product already - even if it's not the product they had desired. That's their own fault, though. Buyer's remorse, Caveat Emptor, and all that. Ya know?

The biggest difference between programmers and other artists rises up here - Programmers can make their product even better even when the "client" has it in their own home. The product itself can be linked to the creator, as if it were a painting that filled in as it hangs on your wall.

What exactly are you expecting me to say here? Even if I fell to your emotional pleas there is literally no way to respond to you in argument, you're basically just stating "I am right, and you should feel bad because of X", with X being some nonsense about writers, shoe-makers, and Beethoven. No offense, but the only remorse I have right now is for your ability to have an accurate view of reality and create a coherent argument, I'm afraid.

Thanks, Sherlock.
.... Or would you rather go by your real name, 'Mr. Obvious'?

Again, nothing but Pathos. While Pathos certainly has it's use... It doesn't actually work in circumstances like this wherein you're attempting to portray reality.
Pathos is more for motivating or de-motivating groups of people to act - to do. Not to think. Logos - Logical appeal - is what you use if you want to cause people to think.

And I'll also note - Logos is lacking within your entire post. There are very few logical connections between your points and examples and generally you just plain don't make a logical point at all.

I don't mean any offense to your personal tastes, but I actually much appreciate Starbound, even in it's current state, much more than I appreciate anything da Vinci did.
And that said, I've actually studied him to an extent and have a decent appreciation of his works. *shrug*
I simply have much more enjoyment from good games than ancient art. So even if your Pathos could work here, you sure didn't use the correct examples. I would much prefer Monet, Van Gogh, and others (in terms of painters, but why even stick to painters? Silly points are just silly.)

And this is what that whole mockery of a post was all about, huh?
The fact that you misinterpreted everything I said and allowed my point to go far above your head because you simply did not stop to think about it? Silly, just plain silly.

So let me resolve this for you. FYI - I was actually pointing out the fact that many of the criticisms provided are worthless and simply untrue - that 'CF' truly is continuing development towards a magnificent game and that those who are unprepared for the wait for such a masterpiece are simply just acting childish, spoiled, and entitled.

I don't mean to offend you, or anyone else here, but let's face reality for a moment, shall we? The game will be done when it is done. You do not rush something like this. Only the ignorant attempt to do that, and oh, yes, they do try.

If anything, the examples you provided prove they do indeed try. Of all the famous artists and whatnot that you know of, how many of them were able to finish their masterpieces without additional time than they were initially allowed?
And how many of them were constantly pestered by people who were not artists but demanded to be served a masterpiece? And how many of those pests were famous themselves, did something magical? Understood the processes required to create something.... Something great?

Just think about that for a moment, because it's pretty obvious you haven't really thought about any of this, since you still seem to think that whining about missed due-dates, and back-handed insults to people you don't even know, is somehow beneficial.

Have a great night Beatrice. I hope you'll take a few moments to re-evaluate your position based on the facts and push aside the pessimism to perhaps see more clearly.
Thanks for reading if you happened to get this far, which I'm going to go ahead and assume you did.

 

That doesnt help anything get back on track. I think this thread has run its course now, nothing good will come of this bickering

 

If you'll read my post carefully, I wasn't 'bickering'.
I was pointing out the truth apart from the non-truth and clarifying information.

One of those truths being that Chucklefish is visibly making progress on the game if anyone is capable of viewing the nightly updates before making their criticisms - which means to make an informed criticism.
Those whom are making uninformed criticisms - are the ones doing the "bickering".

I'm not sure how much more 'on topic' this could be. Someone asks if they're making progress - the answer is 'Yes, check out the nightly updates for evidence'. Everyone who says 'No' is wrong and should be shown their error.
I just happened to use one specific users' post to demonstrate common errors in these pseudo-criticisms.

We could all remark on how much 'progress' we expect to see, rather than the original topic question, but I'm pretty sure THAT would actually be derailing.

 

The question is not physical progress, but how close are we getting to receiving a real game here I think.

You could call little additions to the wiring and combat mechanics a progress of sorts, but where does it fall in the grand scheme of the overall progress of the game as far as getting us closer to an updated stable branch release.


Because thats the only thing that will make me ever touch this game again, as it now sits indefinitely in my Steam graveyard. and I dont feel a bit of guilt, just disappointment. I've switched back to Minecraft for gods sake.

 

Every detail that goes into a painting helps it become more finished doesn't it? Are you to complain that a painting has too much detail?

Seriously, if you want to drop the metaphor, it's obvious they're working to make the game a good one - not just release it with as-is mechanics and to the disappointment of everyone. You would rather have a great game than a mediocre one, wouldn't you?
It was Shigeru Miyamoto who said:

I don't agree that this is always the case, but it's definitely the case here. If Chucklefish had rushed the game to release before redoing a bunch of the mechanics they've redone the game would have never been that great. The fighting would have always been cheap, the difficulty-traversing would have always been awkward, and the game would have really just had one playstyle.
Now they could have shoved in a bunch of stuff to make the game 'seem' deeper than that, but after 'release' a full rework of mechanics is almost undo-able. Those things have a habit of breaking lots of stuff - which is why we're just in Beta right now - and also why we haven't seen a stable release. Too many people were complaining about losing their progress and their stuff.

Not to mention they're adding tons of fan-requested stuff, like upgradeable ships. I believe those weren't really planned for initial release, but people really wanted them so they started working on them for release.

 

Miyamoto said that in an age where you could NEVER update the game once released. I think the point youre missing here is that CF can EASILY continue to work and upgrade this game after a launch, a vast difference in comparison to having it be rushed and "bad forever". At this point its bad forever in my mind.


They take too much onto their plate and tackle too much fan-requested features instead of just making the game they initially said they were making. Ive seen hundreds of useless items and decorations in the nightlies that serve NO purpose and dont need to be implemented until well into its launch, yet the team has undoubtedly spent a good amount of time making all these outlandish and unneeded items when they could have spent the time tightening up the core game.

I know theyre working im just saying release something for us as a version update. EVERY other game I play on Steam is early access and ALL have released updated stable versions to keep people enticed instead of just saying "this is the most recent broken version, enjoy?"


----And no, every stroke does not make a painting better, theres a thing called subtlety, reserve, knowing when to stop. A painting can VERRRYYY easily be considered too busy. If you dont know when you've done too much, you've invested too much thought into your endeavor, and that can be poisonous to the end result as well.[DOUBLEPOST=1411968912][/DOUBLEPOST]and losing your progress is part of participating in a beta to begin with. If people want to cry about that its too damn bad, that shouldnt halt CF from producing a stable update, thats the most ridiculous excuse I've ever heard, I would hope thats not the consensus of the majority with this.

 

A bad 'out of beta release' will only hurt the company in the long run, and will only satisfy a small amount of customers. It's not as simple as slapping a 1.0 label on the work they have already done so far.

 

This is exactly what you miss with non-EA titles,scope starts very large, shrinks based on several factors from time, money, etc. Being EA you see the process from start to finish. It appears a bevy of folks who did EA shouldn't have, as development reality is far too complicated for them to compute....or they are far too impatient for the process.

 

@AstralGhost I don't want that this thread goes out of line, so I will answer your post via PN when I have time, because I'm NOT rude.

However, I want to say one thing here: I admire an artist (and an artisan) as much as I admire every person who does his work with passion. I want to underline that this whole post by mine came from the perspective "I'm like an artist, it needs perfection", which is not a valid argument for me, because everyone who likes his job tends to do it with perfection. Beeing an "artist" is no exclusion. If you say I'm rude to the shoemaker, you completly missinterpet what I mean, so please, read it again. If you understand it, you may come to the conclusion that we are much nearer at each other than you may think. I'm coming from an artisan family, by the way. As such, craftmanship is not a bad word for me.

I also want to underline what @Nizzim said, because that's the point I tried to make. If you like to compare art and programming, the big difference lays in the "finalizing". Caravaggio painted the "fruit basket" and that it is. Sure, there were playwrights like Dürrenmatt who did rewrite some of his dramas, but - well - a majority still thinks that this was a huge mistake. Seeing a game as art and as such "never ending", is a very delicate thing. As such, I really don't like these "excuses".

 

This was not a correct interpretation of my post, as I explained in my last post.

I understand the points you're trying to make. I simply pointed out that they are wrong, irrelevant, or invalid. I don't mean any offense by this, I simply mean to point out you're not looking at these situations with clarity, and the length and depth of my response to you was to point out many examples of this fundamental error.

Please re-read my earlier post if you wish to further discuss this. Thanks.

 

You clearly stated at one point that "I'm rude to the shoemaker" which is, if you did not follow your logic, but did read what I wrote, completly false and full of your own interpetation.

With such an opinion regarding discussion culture I may re-think if I really should write you a message. I'm not going to reply further in this thread.

 

Both of you have made your points and you still disagree. Great. Can we get on with our lives? Or do I have to summon @Izzabelle with pizza and ask that she lock the thread?

 

That doesn't make any sense. You seem to be misinterpreting everything I've said up to this point. I think our discussion ends here. You're making assumptions about my statements that are not productive to a conversation.

I was only attempting to explain myself. Twice is more than enough. Anyone who still doesn't understand at that point probably is not really willing to understand.

[DOUBLEPOST=1412013176][/DOUBLEPOST]I apologize, I missed a reply to me:

Like I stated, they can't continue work on an unfinished product after they launch. There are a ridiculous number of band-aids they'd have to put into place to get the core-game upgraded after a launch, some of which would probably have broken people's saves, as the Beta updates have indeed done so. Programmers call these 'band-aid fixes' and they are usually the result of having to rush out a product (because someone demanded it before it was done) and then the programmers having to patch in new requirements post-release, when in actuality the entire system needed to be redone in a certain way (though it's impossible since people are already using it).

So, it really would be 'bad forever'. Because core-updates like that aren't really feasible after a launch. That's why these games stay in "Early Access" and "Beta" instead of just updating the remainder of the expected-content and then release. If it were more feasible to do updates to the core-game then these early-access games would surely not be in beta for so long - but this is exactly what you see, isn't it?

As I said, this doesn't always apply but it does apply here, because this IS the case. Updates can only do so much once you've released - or else you destroy your fanbase.
However, an 'Early Access' fanbase, people who knowingly paid for an unfinished product, you'd think would actually know better than to expect a full-game before it's actually done.

These are different people you're talking about here. The people making the decoration and do-nothing items are generally the artists. Those items mostly require art and just a bit of scripting which the artists probably do themselves since it's mostly just a copy-and-paste job with a few tweaks.
The core-game is certainly being worked on, too, and by the programmers. You can also see this being done and in case you'd missed the updates, there have been quite a few lengthy dev posts by those programmers explaining what had been done - for example there was a complete rework of the tile-engine recently which is supposed to make the entire game faster, which is something a lot of people had a problem with when the game first released to the public.

As I've stated numerous times, and I think people miss this and just assume I'm a "fanboy" for some nonsensical reason - I agree they should be releasing an occasional stable update.
I see the reasons why they probably aren't doing it - to work on the stuff that actually needs done to get the game 'done' faster, but obviously they are pushing away their fans by not releasing these stable updates.
I think It's obvious, though, that they want to 'complete' the game first and then get back on the schedule of pushing out meaningful releases for the player after that release, so that players can enjoy both an actually stable game and also one that receives continuous support.

Well, opinions, I guess... Everyone has them. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't like Van Gogh's 'Starry Night' because of the heavy-handed texture with deep layers of paint, the dizzily painted swirls, and the surreal atmosphere, but for me personally it's one of my favorites. To each his own.

*sigh* I wish the majority understood this, but I have to disagree. I don't think that's the case.
I'm a programmer myself - non-programmers rarely understand or actually even care what caveats you provide with a product. They want it, and they want it 'Now'. That's all most of them really care about. It's sad but true.

To be honest, it's actually one of the main reasons I hate being a programmer. People tend to think you have some sort of super-powers that enable you to foresee the future and prevent all of their stupid little mistakes, or expect a product without giving you any realistic amount of time to complete it properly. I just get tired of it, to be honest. I dread going to work every day now because of these sort of people.

 

someone hasnt been playing the nightlys

 

Opinions! Assumptions! Internet Arguments! Sunday Sunday Sunday!... on Monday!

The tldr of this thread is; yes, the game is actually progressing.