Small universes

Discussion in 'Other' started by Awwkaw, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    Copy/paste my explanation into the OP!
     
  2. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    wich of your explenations? i mostly see demension related stuff
     
  3. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    But seriously, what he's saying is he wants to make it IMPOSSIBLE to travel outside of a certain area of planets in the case of PVP. Optionally, I would hope.
    I'm sure that if this isn't implemented, mods will do it for us.

    You can only go to those certain planets, if you try to leave you get blocked. This prevents you from getting items outside the area.



    Both of these.
     
  4. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    who says? me? you know i'm the author of the thread right? i do kinda get the point, even thou i want to create a few number of planets and then restrict players to thouse, simply because no more exists, maybe if you could make a starmap aswell.
     
  5. TTCBuilder

    TTCBuilder Jackpot!

    This seems like a good idea, a server that can choose which planets to use/ are accessible.
     
  6. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    This made absolutely no sense.
    I was citing my explanations of the suggestion from earlier in the thread.
     
  7. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex


    If it can be predicted at least theoretically, then it will still happen the same way every time. It doesn't matter if it can't be predicted practically. Understand this sentence and you'll see.

    This discussion is at an end. All our science is based on prediction.
    Electrons can change shape, and we don't know all the laws by which they move. Also, if i recall correctly, the mass of every electron is different. That is really why we can't count where they will be exactly in their orbitals. The "chance" of the place where the electrons will be is not randomness, it's simply our lack of knowledge. They move due to strict laws of physics, and there is only one way each electron can move and only one place it can go and be at one time, determined by a ton of factors. And the information needed is impossible to get(so far at least, and likely never to be had), but that doesn't matter. As long as you could theoretically predict where it will be, it will happen the same way every time.

    If you flip a coin, what you get is not random. You could predict if it will be heads or tails it if you knew the strength used, the angle at which the coin was hit and so on.
    If you throw a dice, the same.
    If you are trying to find the position of an electron, there is only one place it can be. You can only count the area in which the probability to find it is highest due to some of it's properties which make it practically impossible to predict where it will be exactly. Theoretically, you could still predict it, whether it takes the shape of a sphere, a circle or a string.
    And as long as you can predict it theoretically, it will happen the same way all the time.

    If you didn't understand me now, you won't understand me at all. What you are saying basically is that quantum physics works chaotically despite our laws of physics. Well, nothing in our universe does so. Everything works because of certain laws of physics, and as long as they work due to certain laws, things can be predicted. There is no such thing as randomness. And chance is only possible because we can't count accurately enough and can't have all the data that we need for a really accurate count.
     
  8. Pikkon53

    Pikkon53 Void-Bound Voyager

    Ignoring the non-game affecting discussion, I don't see why the original topic is so hard to understand. It's just a multiplayer server, where you do nothing but use the facilities provided and PvP in a large-scale arena. Everyone saying they hope it's optional or that it doesn't happen seems to be misunderstanding something. This is just one server in the hundreds I'm sure will be up regularly. In this particular server you do not build (under normal circumstances), you do not explore, you only file into the method of PvP and fight one another. All in all, I think such options would be a welcome addition to server hosts everywhere, allowing for lots of customization from server to server.
     
    Awwkaw likes this.
  9. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    well i do completly understand you, but yet you're still wrong, we cannot predict the bane of a single electron, since electrons really are to random for us, they don't have to be around the core of their atom, they could be at the other side of the world, we know fore sure thou, that theres a bigger chance of them being around their core. but yet thats only a possibility, also you can newer no if any of the laws of physichs actually are true, thats one of the things you ned to understand, really theyre just theries, whom have been tried so many times, that they are now called "laws" but you can never know if someone at some point starts falling up, if the moon goes towards the earth instead of away from it and so on, all physichs is guesswork, that have come to be called the truth, because it seems so, but who says everything is at it seems? that is actually a qustian that might be relevant for physisicst and it's really basic stuff, if you don't know this you really don't know what you're talking about, yes we can predict much today, but we cannot predict if or ways of prediction will work forever, and therefore not if they are the truth, this goes for all sciences, exept math and software sience, wich works with absolute trhuth, all other sciences work only with emperi, and therefore you can never know if they're true... got it?
     
  10. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    ...
    I see you don't understand me.
    If you still believe what you're writing, you don't understand the main principle of physics. Read my previous posts and you'll find an answer to everything you just wrote.
    I said myself that we can't predict where and electron will be because we lack knowledge of how our universe works and lack the data required to make this calculation and because of some properties of electrons. But theoretically, it is still predictable. So the place in the orbital where the electron might be only SEEMS random for us, while it works under strict laws and can move in only one way.
    Also, of course, there's a 1x10-100 that everything we know is wrong. But there's also the same chance that the moon is made of green cheese. If we think that everything is unpredictable and that all the calculations that worked with the current laws of physics were just a coincidence, then we can make the conclusion that we know nothing. It's the same kind of thinking that "you're alone in the world and you can never know if anyone else really thinks because you can't see from their perspective". That kind of thinking even has it's own name. I just can't remember now. The moon can start moving towards the earth, but it won't just happen randomly. If it will happen, it will happen under strict laws of physics. Every action has a reaction. If the moon starts moving towards us, it will be due to some law of physics we don't currently know. Or due to some miscalculation. Or due to lack of data in some calculation, if we won't predict it. Otherwise we can predict that as well. Your "software science" works due to the same laws of physics.

    I see you don't understand what you're talking about, so i'll just leave you to it. Write me a PM after a few years of study, then we can talk.
     
  11. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    Awwkaw, we're arguing something entirely different from him. We're saying that we can't predict everything and thus it can only be called random, whereas he's saying if it were possible, everything would happen the way it was predicted.


    This part is at Shifter: Organic material such as the brain is far more complicated than the laws of physics, and as such is hardly governed by them. Yes, all objects are governed by the laws of physics, but there is more to the human brain than you seem to realize. I'll grant you, in the fourth dimension, it is entirely possible that only one thing could ever happen in each event, but in the 5th, many different possibilities based on minute (early on) differences are shown.
    The 5th dimension is more of an Idea than a physical place. IF you hadn't realized that.

    You're saying that if we could predict everything, we'd know it could only happen one way. This is wrong, and you don't have to refute the damned laws of physics to realize that.
    If you still insist you're right, give a better explanation. An event that involves living things would do best as an example.

    We're talking entirely in theoretical science here. For all we know, almost everything we're saying is wrong.
     
    §hifter likes this.
  12. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain


    i do understand you, but how can you predict anything, even in theory, whn you only can make a theroy, that you theories for doint it is true? if we theoretically had all the data, then we would still only have a theory that we had a theory that could be used, and in thery we really can get a thery thats better of an theory that we have a theory, and therefore we cannot even theoraticly predict something, since you can never have more than an theory of a theory, and it will be impossible to get more than that
     
  13. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    By the way, there are stronger arguments that question this, but neither of you seem to understand enough to give them.

    This. That one sentence just killed me. I'll have to write it down and show to some friends. And then i'll tell them i actually argued physics with you. They'll die laughing.

    I'm not talking about some theoretical part of physics. I'm talking about all the laws of physics we so far know. Each one is used to predict something. And if you have the exact accurate numbers, you will get an exact accurate answer and will be able to predict what will happen. Each time we understand how something works in the universe we can predict more things. And predict other things and their interactions more accurately.

    Christ, try to check what you write after you do it. It's nigh impossible to understand what you're writing.
    No, this is not "a theory of a theory".
    I didn't understand much past the first sentence, so i'll reply to that part first.
    Lets take the formula f=ma as an example.
    f - force is equal to m - mass times a - acceleration.
    You can predict the exact force of a moving object if you have the right exact data.
    So let's pretend there's a moving object who's acceleration is equal to 2 and mass equal to 5.
    The force will be equal to 10. But this is of course inaccurate. Acceleration is 2.00000005413... and mass is equal to 5.00014201025...
    Then we will get a slightly higher force. If we know the exact data, we can count the exact force of the moving body.
    But that's not all. There's gravity in effect. If we have the right data, we can predict how much it will decrease or increase the force of the moving body(depending on the direction). And there are other factors.
    If you know all of them, you will know the exact force with which the object will hit something. And then you can count the effect it will have on other objects. And it can happen in only one way - according to all of those formulas. There's just no place for randomness in it.
     
  14. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    Admittedly, I don't understand everything, but then neither do you.
    You don't seem to understand that we are arguing two different things.
     
  15. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    I do not understand everything. On the opposite - I don't understand much at all. But everything works on laws of physics.

    I might be wrong here, but so far there's nothing to deny it. Perhaps when humanity understands quantum mechanics better, something that denies this will appear. And there will actually be something truly random. Of course, quantum mechanics also works with certain laws, and thus should be predictable. But i can't say much about that, since it's not a thing well understood yet.
     
  16. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    Let's talk about something less infuriating to us both then.
    From what I understand about physics, things on a quantum level (electrons and smaller? Not sure exactly, but there was a flash on Newgrounds that showed scale really well and a quick google search found it on the spot. http://htwins.net/scale2/ )
    Anyway, what I was saying: I've heard that physics on a quantum level is HIGHLY different. I don't know how, this is just what I've heard.
     
  17. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    but how can you make the exact formula for movement, when the gravity and the weight and the speed is only there in theory? all you can make is an assumable theory, you can never know if the mass will decrease extreemly in 10 sec - 5^10 years, you can assume that they will not, but never know, and therefore you can only assume that the theory you made actually works.
     
  18. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    Okay. Lets work together instead of arguing.
    Quantum physics is different from normal physics. You are right there.
    But different doesn't mean it doesn't follow certain laws.
    And as long as something follows a set of rules, it is predictable.
    Of course, it doesn't have to follow certain laws. But i think it does. Read on to see why i think so.
    Now, you are right that we don't understand a lot. Especially in quantum physics.
    So we can't say anything that touches that subject for certain.
    In normal physics everything is predictable. That is certain. That's what the formulas are for - prediction. For example we can predict the force of a moving object if we know it's acceleration and mass. To get a different result, either the mass or acceleration of the object would have to be different.
    Now, in quantum physics there are too many things we don't know yet to say for certain. But since the larger systems who's basis are quantum particles follow a certain set of laws, the quantum parts which make up these systems should follow a set of laws as well. Because if things of quantum scale were unpredictable, how could they create predictable systems?

    That's the logic I follow. But i might be wrong. Many things about quantum physics are still in question. No. Many isn't right. MOST things about quantum physics are still in question.

    Even so, if at least one thing could act randomly, it would inevitably create randomness in all the systems it makes up. And that would mean we couldn't predict anything, and formulas like f=ma would be useless and meaningless.

    I am not arguing here, i might be making mistakes, just point them out if you see any. We can try to work them out together if so.

    So lets go step by step.
    1. Our universe works according to certain laws of nature. You agree with that? Because otherwise it would mean that everything that the scientists have achieved so far and all the calculations that worked were just a coincidence. So those theories have proven to be true so far.
    2. Since it works due to certain laws it is predictable. Any miscalculation or unpredicted event happens due to lack of knowledge, data or our incomplete understanding of the universe.
    So if the mass of an object would decrease for some inexplicable reason, it would be because of some law of nature we don't know yet. Nothing happens randomly. So far, there are no indicators that it would happen, and what we know so far points at the fact that it won't. That means that I can assume that it probably won't. I say probably, because there is always a chance that some law of physics i don't know yet will take effect for some reason. If that would happen, i would reconsider what i know and fit that new knowledge into my understanding of the world.
     
  19. Crazyon

    Crazyon Master Astronaut

    Reading this thread makes me laugh :D
    Not because of the idea, but because of the arguments :rofl:
     
    Farbius, Awwkaw and §hifter like this.
  20. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    Let's point something out:



    yep so far, and we can never know if they actually keep on proving to be right, i'd say true is a wrong term, since the only sciense working with trues is mathmematics, but yet so far, and maybe they haven't if you go to the farthest decimal you'd need every single atom to be in the right plays, they aren't "laws" of physichs, but merely Theories, that have come as far as being accepted by us humans, and we therefor proclaim that they are laws, but they're still only theories, our theory is that they're laws, but what if that theory is wrong?

    something else:

    again, only to be right, you'd need way to much data to prove something true, while right is pretty easy
     

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