Secrets and sequences (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by freeformschooler, Sep 28, 2014.

  1. freeformschooler

    freeformschooler Void-Bound Voyager

    Hi! After beating the game (totally worth the $5), I have two big suggestions regarding the game that could make it feel a little less... dull in some parts.

    Leave in the diagonal pit bug -- make it a feature!

    I saw this in the bug tracker, and the developer thinks it could lead to some "nasty" sequence breaking. However, I don't think that's the case! It would actually be a rather cool feature. Here's three reasons why.

    1. Sequence breaking has long been part of Zelda. The developers have not been at all antagonistic toward this and even outright made some games where it would be obvious to even new players (LttP comes to mind).
    2. There's only one broken sequence allowed by this bug: skipping Level Seven. This is because you need to pass both water AND pits to get to Level Eight, at least in my world gen. Maybe in other world gens, level eight is nowhere near the water, and you only need to pass pits? Anyway, it took some major trial-and-error to skip Level Seven, but I finally did it in the latest version.
    3. The game actually compensates for this automatically!! How cool is that? In Level Eight, I found both the Silver Bow AND the Spring. Now, since there were pits outside and inside the dungeon, I can only assume the Spring was supposed to be found in Level Seven instead, but the level generator was smart enough to figure out what I'd done. Is this correct?

    More secrets

    Ever since Zelda 1, there's been hidden areas and mini-dungeons. For me, this made the Overworld a sort of boring part of Lenna's Inception. Now, admittedly, there was still plenty of loot to find, but there weren't even simple puzzles or hidden rooms that I could see (except in the library).

    One thing that would be really awesome is removing the Tunic and Potion sellers from the random NPCs and instead putting them in hidden-away areas in the overworld. There weren't a lot of uses for the Lighter after its initial introduction... everything except ice (which there isn't much of late-game) could be destroyed in other ways. Maybe make two really big tree tiles or conspicuous bushes that can only be opened/destroyed with the lighter and have the two shops in there like the hidden shops in Zelda 1?

    Awesome game, though. I'm gonna try to get all the tunics -- and explore the rest of the overworld. Good luck with future development!
     
    • tccoxon

      tccoxon Procedurally Generated Programmer Chucklefish

      Hi! I'm glad you like the game!

      I agree with you that sequence-breaking can be a lot of fun. The problem with the diagonal holes is that it's so easy to do, people do it by accident and report it as a bug. IMHO, if something is not obviously, intuitively intentional, and it's easy to accidentally do, it either needs to be scrapped or altered in a way to make it look intentional. The idea I currently have for these diagonal holes is to make it harder to do by accident. In future, you might need a speed potion to get over those holes.

      On the subject of sequence breaking, did you know you can get access to the whole of the overworld map without beating any bosses? ;)

      I'm aware that the overworld is a little sparse at the moment. I'm currently focusing on the storyline content, but after that I have a bunch of ideas I'm planning for the overworld. I'm thinking of new biomes, little caves with extra-hard monsters (and loot) in them, and more out-of-town NPCs and side-quests. Burnable trees will probably make an appearance too.
       
      • freeformschooler

        freeformschooler Void-Bound Voyager

        Excellent idea about the speed potion allowing sequence breaking. The reason I mentioned trial and error is because there's actually a related bug that hasn't been mentioned yet. You know how the world gen creates "barriers" to areas that have item gates right at the entrance? As an example, this might be found in the top two rows of a room:

        Code:
        #@#
        ._.
        
        # = fence
        @ = Lenna
        . = ground
        _ = pit/hole
        You can actually perform the diagonal pit walk even if one of the "pits" is a fence or similar solid object. However, it's a lot more difficult.

        As for accessing the entire world map without beating a boss, you wouldn't happen to be referring to
        the hover tunic? It's shown in the screenshots on the forum, but I haven't seen it in-game.
         
        • tccoxon

          tccoxon Procedurally Generated Programmer Chucklefish

          Haha, no. The game only lets you get the hover tunic/potion after you've already got the Fish Leather Shorts and the Spring, so that doesn't let you access any new areas, just makes things more convenient.


          If you actually want to know what I'm referring to:
          after collecting the equipment (lighter, missinglasses, bombs, etc.) from a dungeon, you can actually leave that dungeon and go straight to the next without beating the boss there. You only have to beat the bosses and collect artifacts to trigger story events and the ending credits at the moment.
           
          • Jetter

            Jetter Subatomic Cosmonaut

            +1 to more secrets. I'm also wondering about some potential secrets related to some story elements. The two that stick out to me off the top of my head are
            The banker's flawed economic recovery plan. He obviously has sinister motives, but even if his plan worked as he said all it would result is is hyperinflation, leaving the economy even worse off than before. I don't want to call it a plot hole becasue the banker could have been rushed to come up with an explanation for why anyone would want to create a monster army and was hoping that Lenna wouldn't notice the flaw. But for anyone who can spot that discrepancy and was paying attention to the NPCs, Lenna could get an economic consultation from Rupert's equity-trading wife about if it'd really work, and that could lead to her and some of the bears being ready to flee in advance just in case something unfortunate were to happen.

            The second is
            The planned memorial service changing based on whether or not Lenna managed to get to that point in the story without killing any soldiers. Given the effect that occurs if you do kill one, I'd be surprised if it made no difference anyway.
             
            • tccoxon

              tccoxon Procedurally Generated Programmer Chucklefish

              *takes notes*
               
              • Kishi

                Kishi Master Chief

                It gives you a choice to kill the soldiers or not, mentions how many you kill or don't at the funeral. Could have a secret ending or altered endgame story for not murdering the Archangels or committing to revenge. Maybe you get a choice to finish off Delvin or not if you do exercise some pacifism. Still, most players will opt to murder the bosses as is typically the normal game trope. Even so, and I know Lenna's feelings about pacifism from yelling at the blacksmith, it could maybe find a way into the story perhaps?
                 
                • tccoxon

                  tccoxon Procedurally Generated Programmer Chucklefish

                  Haha, wow. Have you been reading my notes Kishi? :D
                   
                  • Kishi

                    Kishi Master Chief

                    You were the one that just left them on the tableeeeIMEAN I wasn't in your house... >_>;

                    Haha no but heck, it'd be a cool idea and it's not something addressed in too many games.
                     

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