Removing Fector's Challenge

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Linio, Apr 8, 2016.

  1. Linio

    Linio Big Damn Hero

    Hello.

    There's a topic about Fector's Challenge on Steam :

    http://steamcommunity.com/app/413150/discussions/0/405694115215540317/

    It's pretty interesting.
    One player points out :

    The "perfect run" achievement is a design blunder. As simple as that. Even the achievement to play and finish the minigame at all is honestly out of character for this game.

    I personally hate -- *HATE* -- twin-stick shooter arcade games. Always have, all the way back to Robotron. Loved almost every other type of Arcade game -- Asteroids, Space Invaders, Star Wars, Pac Man, Gauntlet, even Pole Position. And I feel like this achievement is a big bird flip in my direction, since the rest of the game makes sense and this one tiny part of it does not.
    I totally agree with that, specially since this achievement is known to be buggy.
    Why having put this achievements in the first place?

    Could those be removed (at least Fector?). Why put a shooter achievement in Stardew Valley?

    Thanks.
     
      WilliamZ and Vith like this.
    • Cider

      Cider Pangalactic Porcupine

      Well seeing how you don't get anything for completing the challenge and achievements are pretty much useless outside of bragging rights I don't really see how this is a problem.
       
        Fuzzyman and Xamerzan like this.
      • Jumboshrimp

        Jumboshrimp Cosmic Narwhal

        What do you think an achievement is? What's the definition of an achievement?
         
        • soldyne

          soldyne Poptop Tamer

          I agree with the OP.

          saying you don't get anything out of achievements applies to playing all games anywhere. you also don't get anything out of harvesting virtual crops for virtual monies or from virtually marrying a set of colored sprites.

          or do you? maybe you get emotional satisfaction from performing those activities. Many of us see the achievements list as a set of goals to accomplish in the game in order for us to consider the game "complete" and so completing achievements gives us that sense of emotional satisfaction. so, for some of us, the twin stick shooter in the middle of an otherwise casual, easy going rpg provides a source of negative emotional stress, because a twin stick shooter is not the reason we bought the game.

          just because something is hard to do does not mean it has a place in this game.

          if the mini-game were a game on its own and fectors challenge was an achievement then it would be perfectly valid. but, it is a game within a game and the fact that there are not one but two achievements for a mini-game is what some of us are complaining about. we are not complaining about the difficulty of the achievement, we are disgruntled with the existence of achievements for things in the game that have nothing to do with the main focus of the game.

          the whole point of putting in achievements is to say that "such-and-such" activity in the game is important and should be focused on. mini-games are not supposed to be a focus and should not have achievements associated with them. I think that is part of good game design and that is what the OP is trying to say.

          if CA wants to publish Journey of the Prairie King as a separate stand alone game (maybe with more features, more polish, etc) and make Fector's Challenge an achievement there, then it would fit and be a perfectly acceptable achievement for those people who bought the game for what it was.
           
          • Tamorr

            Tamorr Oxygen Tank

            I see that achievement being only as a challenge type. It being removed, removes one challenge from the game. To me achievements are just guidelines for different playstyles. Since this game has a lot of playstyles and a lot of people playing the game differently...

            What I am saying it is there for an extra challenge. It is just an arcade game, and that is what arcade games usually are; challenging or geared to be so for the quarters or moneys put in, at least in certain instances. Having it in the game to have that sort of challenge is an arcade dream of winning, and to have something to show for the effort put into it. All it is, in a sense is bragging rights or self accomplishment to say that you did it.

            Yes some people are driven to be completionist perspective, which includes achievements. To this I say it is something that an achievement hunter should accept the challenge as is, otherwise leave it alone. That is just me though since I am not quite a completionist, but more of a collector. Having this achievement is something to aim for with the game within the game in my spare time within the game.

            This game is about doing many tasks, and this is just another thing that brings life to the game in a different way. After all why have an arcade at all if the only challenges with them is just to beat the game. Anyone with enough time and effort; or well most would be able do in the very least beat the game, so not much a challenge in the long run. With this one it has a long run challenge, and I rather like that fact.

            So more or less I disagree with the removal of said achievement, as it is there for those that want to accomplish it. Yes, in time I will attempt it over and over like an arcade game. Otherwise it would be play and forget type of thing once the game is beaten. Unless one enjoys the game itself, hence the reward in-game once beaten; and no reward with the beaten on extreme terms.

            Not every achievement was made for everyone, but for generally a broad group. So some may not like it, and some may just to have something to show for their ego or accomplishment. Whether that means to others or themself is up to the one getting said achievement.

            That is about all I can say of it, and is how I see it. :nuruhappy:
             
            • Linio

              Linio Big Damn Hero

              The game has a general flavor, and those in pursuit of achievements do choose their games also considering this.
              Stardew Valley is not exactly the kind of game where you're supposed to be stressed out of your mind to stay alive, in this sense, Fector's Challenge is not an achievement really agreeing to this type of game.

              Worst, the achievement is actually hard, nearly impossible and purely luck-based. Why having made this achievement the hardest one in the game, was the point was to say : oh yeah ok, this minigame should actually considered one of the main aspect of the game, and you'll have to train and work on it for a while?

              Having put 'Finishing Prairie King' made sense in the way of giving another perspective on the game, putting Fector's Challenge is just moving this a little bit too far...
               
                oath2order likes this.
              • Jumboshrimp

                Jumboshrimp Cosmic Narwhal

                Maybe that's why they call it an achievement. Something for people to work for, not someone to hand out for everyone like a trophy after a kid's baseball game. You're complaining about a challenge in the game because you can't achieve a challenge for an optional trophy. There is nothing you miss out on because of it and it would only count toward Steam, not the game itself. Do you complete every single achievement in every game possible or something? If not, why is Stardew an exception? If you just want an achievement, you can cheat and hack the game. There is already a guide for that online.
                 
                  Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
                • Linio

                  Linio Big Damn Hero

                  A lot of high and mighty people here.

                  Have you even tried to have the achievement before speaking?

                  Again, the achievement is not just hard, it's barely doable at this point.
                  If something is broken, I see a point in telling about it, apparently i'm the only one...
                   
                  • oath2order

                    oath2order Spaceman Spiff

                    I wholeheartedly agree.
                     
                    • Tamorr

                      Tamorr Oxygen Tank

                      Well in this genre there usually seems to be one somewhere, at least in the versions of HM that I have played. I mean goddess wife anyone... Which takes a whole lot of effort, patience and time. Granted that is mainly a part of the game as a hidden thing or not so secret secret thing.

                      Sure the game is not based around combat, but it doesn't have very many things that are quite difficult or long term challenges with the game mechanics. At least for myself. Casual can mean a lot of things and does define quite a variety of different playstyles in itself, just like those that proclaim hardcore of themselves also have a variety of playstyles within that group.

                      I myself am a casual gamer, that casually plays at a slower pace to build up towards what ever goals I have set or have in mind. Seeing as how this game offers a lot to do; there is a lot of distractions. Achievements are only a single aspect of the game, and minor compared to the rest of the game. Having a challenging achievement like so just instills me to keep at it. Some people have in mind to do certain things in game, just for the heck of it, and don't have much to show for it. Many games in the past follow this.

                      I have seen people attempt some odd things in gaming. Why? because they can. Granted quite a few probably don't care if they did get a notable recognition within the game itself, and I think that is how this particular challenge was designed. Just a guess. To say hey nice job on putting all that effort in to get it down a certain way. Now a days gaming has somewhat lessened to what they use to be, but only because the internet got more open to the public. Today of wikis and easy to access info... Quite a change in structure.

                      I am not saying that a game should be always difficult, but having something for the crowd that likes trying something difficult is a nice touch I think. Since otherwise, there would be no reward of any kind for such a feat. Also today there truly are not many achievements that are secret anymore or hard to come by. I see that in majority of games today, but mainly because aforementioned net era expanding. Games in the past that did reward such things within the game people had to use other means or be surprised that the author thought of such, and rewarded in some way.

                      so I kind of agree with the other person, it is just an achievement; a icon in the library to say hey I accomplished this or that, being a trophy of some sort. For me it is a notion of what I achieved for myself to look back on, and say yeah I did attempt that and succeeded. Each game has their easy, medium, and difficult achievements. Or well some usually do. And I say again, not all achievements are meant for everybody.

                      and as before it is just my perspective, as a casual gamer of a different kind I guess. Raised from the dark ages of gaming. :nuruundead:
                       
                      • Jumboshrimp

                        Jumboshrimp Cosmic Narwhal

                        If you just want an achievement for the sake of achievement, there's already a cheat to get that without any effort, I'm not sure what you're requesting here, make it universal for everyone to get the achievement that means absolutely nothing except bragging right. It's barely doable because that's the point. Just cheat if you want to bypass it if you just want the achievement just for the sake of completion.
                         
                          Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
                        • Lini

                          Lini Space Spelunker

                          Signed up on this forum just to be able to add my own two copper on the issue.

                          I'm with OP on that this achievement should be removed because it's both ridiculously difficult and clashes with the general flavor of the game. Pretty much everything else in stardew valley has a relaxed pace and I was happy about this being one of few games that I might be able to 100% with enough time put into it. That one achievement though completely ruins it since it's so luck based and frustrating and it's all that plus being a shooter achievement in a game that advertises itself to be a relaxing farming sim?

                          The journey of the prairie king achievement I could accept, it's gonna be an unpleasant grind but it might be do-able. But it strikes me as strange that this one mini-game that doesn't even use the skill system gets more achievements related to it than monster hunting or artifact collecting; of which at least the former is a primary game mechanic.
                           
                            CrunchiePotatoe likes this.
                          • Vith

                            Vith Scruffy Nerf-Herder

                            I also agree as well that this achievement should be removed. People can cheat it anyway.
                             
                              CrunchiePotatoe likes this.
                            • Saibara

                              Saibara Subatomic Cosmonaut

                              I never really saw it existed until I saw people talking about it... and then I knew I already had it because the first time I beat the game, I did it without dying ^^ But I can see where people are comming from. No, I do not think it should be removed. There is a ton of achievements that I don't have in other games, and that is fine. I am not a die-hard completionist, I see it more in the way of that I remember MOST of the more significant achievements I got and HOW I got them. I know there are folks that absolutely DIG hunting for achievements, but hey, if you roll that way, then you just gotta go through it. From what I understand, it IS rather random, as without a super-lucky day AND munching your lucky meal, you can almost forget about it. Then again, time does not advance while playing, so if you have your super lucky day and eaten your luck boost, then you can try as many times you want.
                               
                                Tamorr likes this.
                              • tak388

                                tak388 Space Hobo

                                I rarely ever agree with posts like this, but in this particular case, I'll make an exception. I personally believe that there's a line that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to achievements, and in the case of 'Fector's Challenge', the line has been crossed.

                                I'll start with a little bit of background pertaining to my experience with games similar to Journey of the Prairie King. I have gotten 100% of the achievements for The Binding of Isaac (which is basically identical to JotPK), I have gotten every single achievement in Bullet Heaven, Bullet Heaven 2, and I'm a seasoned Touhou veteran who has 1cced almost every game to date.

                                With that said, completing Journey of the Prairie king with no deaths is not a fair challenge by any metric. It cannot be mitigated by skill, and requires a level of luck that is simply not attainable without modification or flat-out hacking. I can say with certainty that anyone who has completed said challenge has done so with the assistance of a mod, cheat engine, or some other hacking device. Those who didn't use said devices got the achievement through the exploitation of a bug that existed prior to a patch. Those who claim otherwise are lying, and any videos that demonstrate otherwise have been doctored.

                                The achievement should be removed, and replaced with a more principled alternative; such as an achievement for completing JotPK on 'hard mode'. This is a far more manageable, yet difficult alternative that will challenge players to complete something with an appropriate margin of error, and won't force people to just speed-hack the game (which, let's face it, is exactly what everybody is doing).
                                 
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                                • bell6289

                                  bell6289 Space Hobo

                                  I got the game for a laid back experience but eventually got bored and decided to get the achievements.
                                  This is the only one that has given me any trouble.
                                  It just doesn't belong in a game that was meant as a means to feel good about everything, and at least for me be an escape into an immersive community that makes you want to come back.
                                  The fact that i don't want to play this game anymore because 1 achievement has me getting angry at an otherwise peaceful game makes me more upset than anything.
                                  It just takes away from the whole experience.
                                  Also the fact that to this day only 0.03% of people have this achievement (Xbox one) should tell you just how bad getting this achievement actually is.
                                  Especially when about 1.5 million people have the game on just Xbox alone
                                   
                                    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
                                  • Psylisa

                                    Psylisa Space Hobo

                                    I'd like to state that I have this achievement on PS4. There's no hacking, modding, or "previous patches" to where this achievement was easy on that platform.

                                    It's an achievement. It's do-able. And it can be mitigated by skill. Do you need a bit of luck? Sure, you need to gain enough money drops to buy your equipment. Sometimes, you need the right power up at the right time. But knowing where to stand, how to fire, how enemies move and spawn - all of that goes into it as well.
                                     
                                    • RoyalHolic

                                      RoyalHolic Space Hobo

                                      I'm on PS4 and really struggling with this, I've got about 80 hours into the game and about 10 just in Journey Of The Prairie King with no luck, I've done all the guides and everything but sadly I just can't do it.

                                      I love shooters, platinumed KF2, Destiny 1 and even have Smash TV on the SNES which I loved as a kid as it's kind of similar but for some reason I can't beat JOTPK.
                                       
                                      • Fuzzyman

                                        Fuzzyman Zero Gravity Genie

                                        Yep, I don't have the neuromuscular function to even bother attempting it so I'm glad that the rest of the game is not dependent on it. It's a nice family game that grandpa can play with grandkids. No button smashing special attacks, just as much calm as you want and if you really are into combat go to the caves
                                         
                                        • RoyalHolic

                                          RoyalHolic Space Hobo

                                          I've got about another 6 hours trying to beat Fector's Challenge, got to the boss didn't have any specials and died.
                                           

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