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Pre-Release Lore Talks!

Discussion in 'Starbound Discussion' started by AvalonArrival, Mar 30, 2020.

  1. AvalonArrival

    AvalonArrival Void-Bound Voyager

    I need to get this off my chest.

    I hate the new codex logs for post release starbound.

    There I said it. I miss the pre release codexs and stories that you would find all over the place. Anyone else remember Thornwing's Story? Or the thing that was secretly going down between the Apex, Floran, and Avians? How about that one story of a glitch bounty hunter who went to a haunted prison? That scared the heck outta me. What about the struggle within Avain society between those that believed in Kluex and those that didn't? The mystery behind the Miniknog and their experiments? The struggle between the Florans and Hylotl? The struggle of the Glitch who had separated themselves from the Hivemind and become their own person? I spent hours reading and theorizing about this stuff, and I'm still so disappointed it was just... Removed. Gone, without even a goodbye or a reason.

    What are yall's thoughts? You feel the same? You have any stories from pre release starbound adventures you want to share?
  2. Armok

    Armok Cosmic Narwhal

    I... am very much of the opposite opinion of you

    I can get into the details as to why if you're curious, but other than that, that's all I'm going to say
  3. Lorenerd11

    Lorenerd11 Void-Bound Voyager

    Silly pointless nonsense that never went anywhere and was only ever there just to be ✨mysteeeriooous✨.

    That's still a thing. Grounded Avians have still chosen to defy the Stargazers and the Kluex faith, forming their own communities.

    The Miniknog still experiments on its people.

    That used to be a thing in-universe in the current canon, long ago, and wasn't done out of any malice towards the Hylotl specifically – the Hylotl were just unlucky to be encountered by the Floran back when they were less... restrained.

    I'd argue it's much better that way.

    The hivemind stuff was nonsense that went against everything the simulation-bound Glitch were supposed to be. Functioning as a hivemind was counterproductive to their purpose of simulating a civilization, as civilizations do not function as hiveminds.

    And the struggle of self-aware Glitch being shunned by the simulation-bound Glitch is also still there.

    I think most of it was incoherent, self-contradictory nonsense that was very much in need of a cleanup. That said, I do want to one day adapt some of its concepts into the new canon, in a way that would hopefully blend well with it.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
    Jonesy, Armok and STCW262 like this.
  4. STCW262

    STCW262 Heliosphere

    I think that the old lore wasn't well written for several reasons:
    • Glitch literally couldn't reproduce according to the lore. Now, that's adressed to explain how they can do so without gaining awareness of their true nature. On top of this, their overall characterization was that the non-self-aware Glitch have a society that revolves around hunting down and exterminating the self-aware.
      Now, their society is more elaborated upon, and the angle of most Glitch being obsessive witch-hunters is pretty much gone, replaced with having them compartimentalize their society from that of everyone else so they do not notice how technologically backwards they are. Moreover, how they manage to function from a "biological" standpoint is actually explained.
    • Florans have, since their introduction, conceptualized as killing and eating other sapients because they don't get that they can also think and regard them as talking prey that's no different from normal prey (Think of https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatMeasureIsANonHuman for a similar mentality applied to humans). In the old lore, the "don't get that other species are also people" part wasn't exactly shown, and the old lore simply portrayed them as sadistic savages whithout any redeeming qualities, treat even their own kind horribly, and who you really should kill on sight.
      Now, they're still bloodthirsthy savages, but they're much more nuanced. For starters, the "don't get that other species are also people" part is actually shown at least in one lore entry, and even their dialogue doesn't sounds like the case in old versions of barely restraining themselves from attacking you (Now they're more likely overall to show curiosity than figuratively sharpening their knives and trying to figure out how to best cook you).
    • Apex had the problem that Big Ape was overall depicted as an idiot, with stuff such as wanting to have a boxing match with Kluex. Now, he's not even really a character so much as a figure, which is more appropiate considering that Nineteen Eighty Four was a major inspiration for them as a race.
      Similarly, the explanation behind the Miniknog's experimentation on Apex makes more sense: In the old lore, the motivation was seeking to develop a kind of Apex super soldier, which falls rather flat considering that they're also depicted as being overall much more technologically advanced than anyone else, and as such it outright is difficult to take that seriously when considering that they'd actually find it easier to simply develop adequate gear. Now, the explanation is that they want to restore Apex to how they originally looked like, which explains why do they HAVE to employ experimentation on their own subjects, instead of developing a cheaper, potentially more useful or expendable alternative.
    • Hylotl were essentially portrayed as smug jerks with a galaxy-sized ego whose main purpose was to suffer in the name of comedic relief. Now they're actually relevant, their ego is still quite big but not ridiculously so, and are not portrayed as a chew toy.
    • Humans at the time had little lore beyond "Our planet got destroyed" and some bunkers staffed by shoot-on-sight personnel, and overall played such a minor role in spite of being based around what was obviously a very plot-critical event that it outright came off as if the devs had shoehorned them in.
    Armok, Catherine Franz and Lorenerd11 like this.
  5. Armok

    Armok Cosmic Narwhal

    Might as well add in my two cents, mostly regarding human lore and making a statement about how the races were portrayed in general (especially given that everyone else has basically described all the other issues I'd say):

    the humans had some very schizophrenic lore for them regarding their political situation back in beta, either they were some generic ass space empire (literally called the human empire), a bunch of warring nation-states that had just discovered FTL and were fighting over mars, or being under the United Systems Colonial Marines (who were basically a walking talking aliens knockoff). now humans have a much more clear political state (and dare I say, even a more original civilization) under the terrene protectorate and its fellow branches of government.

    as for the general lore, it felt like each race was reduced to some absurd dumbing down of their basic ideas, the floran were mindless savages, the apex were just stereotypical monkeys, the hylotl were the subject of genocide jokes, the glitch didn't even try to follow their basic premise, the avians had a copy-paste of the apex's political situation but with a religion that *could not be refuted*, and even the humans ended up being portrayed as naive idiots.

    now the races are far more nuanced and in line with what they were *intended* to be, which is ironic since most people who despise the new canon claim that the new lore is "dumbed down" despite the inverse being the case
    STCW262 likes this.
  6. AvalonArrival

    AvalonArrival Void-Bound Voyager

    Well yall do bring up some very good points. I just felt like there is less... Mystery to the universe of Starbound now. I always felt excited to find something new in pre release and to learn about all the different races and their problems. Perhaps the lore did need a bit of revision (okay maybe a lot) but I do feel like at least the mystery to the races and the overall universe of starbound has been dumbed down at least a little bit. Granted, there IS still a lot of mystery, and I DO like some of the revisions that were made to the lore. But I feel like a combination of the pre release and post release would be better.

    For example: What if you brought back the mystery of what was going down between the Minikong, Stargazers, and Floran? Or did more involving the Minikong experiments on their people? And perhaps the Terran Protectorates involvement in it all. You could have the Peacekeepers doing raids on Minikong facilities, the Terran Protectorate speaking out against the Minikong and calling the other races to try to force them to treat their people better (much like what the UN does with North Korea). Maybe a Terran Protectorate Program that was supposed to help mend the relations between Floran the the rest of the galaxy. A program that turned the Florans FROM being "Do you taste better raw or well cooked?" to the adorably curious savages we have now.

    My point is I feel like the lore of Starbound and the story shouldn't end here. There is still so much they could do, and I was quite disappointed with how much they cut out and with how much they simply decided not to do anything with. I'm a guy who likes mystery and adventure, I don't like everything being explained to me all at once. I like to be able to theorize one what's going on and take a guess. And I feel like they took that aspect of discovery and mystery away with the new lore. Personally? I would really like some of that mystery back.
    Gensou Ichida likes this.
  7. Gensou Ichida

    Gensou Ichida Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    i think the big stuff i would've loved to see more of concerning the prerelease lore would be Thornwing and the Ring Of Thorns and their ultimate goal, as well as what was touched upon with the agaran at one point. but yeah, even with the flaws the early lore had, the new lore kind of sucks away some of the depth and mystery of the Starbound universe. it's not so much of a matter of "being dumbed down" as it is being more simplistic and honestly really vague, and forcing in connections to things that were added in later (though really, even the older lore had this problem).

    or maybe this is just me being disappointed with how by-the-book the release storyline was and really not liking how a lot of the current lore/theories seem to all tie back to the Cultivator or the Protectorate. like i did like the amount of detail that went into the beta avian lore and the mystery behind Kluex and the Sunborn, but i don't like the implications of Kluex just being the avians' representation of the Cultivator.

    i dunno, the whole subject of Starbound's lore is really complicated for me to explain. though ultimately, i'm just disappointed that there's not really much of an element of mystery and fascination to the current lore. there is a problem with making things too detailed and leaving a lot of gaps, sure, but leaving things simplistic just doesn't hold a lot of satisfaction? kind of a matter of striking the balance between "filling in the puzzle" and "leaving some pieces blank and wondering where they fit", i guess.

    words are hard.
  8. AvalonArrival

    AvalonArrival Void-Bound Voyager

    Exactly! That's what I'm talking about! I would love it if they brought back some stuff like that.

    Its my personal belief and head cannon that Kluex isn't the Cultivator or an Avian Cultivator. It's just Ancients tech that a ridiculously smart Avian managed to harness and used to call himself a god. Or perhaps Kluex is one of the last Ancients. If we take the prerelease lore as canon, we KNOW that Kluex can be "Met" as what happened with an Avian scientist who was invited to meet their God by the Sunborn. I don't really believe the Kluex Avatar we fought in the Avian Mission was Kluex Himself, just a final guardian construct for the Artifacts.

    While I'm on the subject of the Missions and the Artifacts, anyone know what exactly the Artifacts ARE or what they DO? Like, if they're supposedly great gifts to the races (except the Novakid who can't be trusted with the knowledge of which way is up) what do they DO other than look shiny and open the gate to the Ruin aka the Universe Ender.
    Gensou Ichida likes this.
  9. Lorenerd11

    Lorenerd11 Void-Bound Voyager

    If it cheers you up in any way, I can reveal that some of the concepts I'm hoping to adapt into the current canon involve characters loosely inspired by beta's Thornwing, Greenfinger, and Big Ape – none of them under these names, for obvious reasons, and some general tweaks to their characters and backgrounds will be necessary, but they'll fulfill similar roles nonetheless.

    Nothing confirmed, but there's some theories. For example, it's widely assumed that the Apex artifact, Genesis Coil, was capable of genetic manipulation, and that its properties were researched and utilized by the Miniknog for the VEP process.

    There's a reason the Novakid didn't receive an artifact, and it's got nothing to do with whether or not they can be trusted with one. If that was it, the Floran wouldn't have been chosen either.

    No, the real reason why the Novakid didn't receive an artifact, is because they did not exist at the time when the artifacts were given out. At least, not in the form that they currently exist.

    I'll leave it to you to figure out what that means.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
    Jonesy, Gensou Ichida and Armok like this.
  10. Gensou Ichida

    Gensou Ichida Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    oooooo i'm curious! can't wait to see! o:
  11. BAM-BIN-0

    BAM-BIN-0 Guest

    I mean, some parts of the old lore were pretty interesting.

    I really liked the idea of Agarans being the big baddies. Who knew what their intentions were, and where they came from.
  12. Armok

    Armok Cosmic Narwhal

    there's a modder I know, RL.starbound, who's working on reintroducing some old concepts in beta, but in a way that still fits into the current canon, among those things is the Agaran being a part of a floran-miniknog experiment, only this time with *a* greenfinger and not *the* greenfinger, and possibly the Agaran being more tinkered with instead of an actual creation of that project as implied in beta lore
    BAM-BIN-0 likes this.
  13. Akre

    Akre Pangalactic Porcupine

    Florans in the new lore are still clearly presented as cannibalistic, as is shown in their cooking tips.
    Armok likes this.
  14. Armok

    Armok Cosmic Narwhal

    basically yeah, but they're a lot more nuanced now, they're not all cannibals, but they're certainly not all "civilized" either, they seem to be in a bit of a transitional state of adapting into the wider galactic community
    STCW262 likes this.
  15. STCW262

    STCW262 Heliosphere

    Yes, but now they're more than that and i's not treated as if it was practically the only thing about their culture. Moreover, their eating habits being a result of not understanding that the other species aren't just talking prey is actually shown in-game.
    Before, the lore either revolved around their ways of getting to eat people of other species when it wasn't about Greenfinger, and even their dialogue had them talk as if you not staying around was the only reason even ostensibly friendly Florans didn't try to eat you (Essentially, most of their dialogue involved either threatening to eat you, or to kill you), and overall came off less as if they simply didn't have any more empathy for "meatbags" than any other prey and more as if they thought that eating people is at least somewhat wrong, but didn't care.
    Armok likes this.

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