Post-Patch Scaling and Planetary Exploration Problems

Before I get into this - yes, I understand that it's a first pass and it's very unbalanced. And no, I'm not saying I absolutely hate the new weapon/armor system, I actually like it a lot. It has great potential and it'll grow with time later in the beta. However, my problem with this is the crunch from 100 to 10 levels of difficulty, and the fact that the reason for such a crunch was scaling causing numbers to become absolutely absurd.

They don't need to be. This game could function with 100 levels in its current state, or even 50 as I suggested in my thread here. This is an excerpt from my planetary difficulty suggestion, pre-patch, when we first heard about the crunch:

Level Squish:
Ultimately, the goal is to condense the number of threat levels in a given sector so that scaling from 1 - 100 doesn't involve absurdly large numbers. To address this, I would suggest a threat level variance within a sector of 5, instead of the full 10. While this would reduce the variance of planets by half, it would still offer a ladder of progression within the tier, while reducing the overall final level of the game by half. Ultimately, we would end up with 50 levels instead of 100. Planets then would carry an indicator of threat level for that sector based on a "Star" system. A one-star planet for a sector would be the easiest difficulty available, whereas a 5-star planet would be the most difficult in that system. These numbers would not be initially visible to the player, to avoid confusion - instead, this would be visible when a planet is scanned. Instead, I have a proposed alert system available to address planet difficulty from the player's perspective.

Tiered Content:
The game would continue to function as it does today in regards to the number of tiers - we'd still have the proposed 10 tiers of content. However, my system would add a mini-boss, accessible in the same way as the end-tier boss, to the middle of the tier, in order to add a smoother sense of progression to the game. The boss would be considerably less difficult/complex than the end-of-tier boss, and would facilitate the upgrading of the research station on the player's ship, which would then unlock the ability to upgrade crafted equipment for that tier. This would add a sense of in-tier progression to the game, as well as smoothing out the path of progression between sectors.

Alert Level:
The Tech Level system outlined above would be used to define an alert level for planets, at a glance and once in orbit. The player would start the game with all systems aside from Navigation at level 0 - the engines don't work, storage is absolutely minimal, scanners can only be used to tell the threat level of a planet, and the research station doesn't work. The player can't transport goods to the surface, either. Through the tutorial, the player would be guided to repairing their engine, setting up their research station console, activating the MSTS and aligning their scanner array. Through this, the player would initially start at Level 1.

The Alert Level system would detect the average level of the player's current systems, rounded up. It would then compare this to the difficulty level of the planet (the difficulty stars system, 1-5), adding five for each sector past the Alpha sector (IE, Beta * would effectively be difficulty six). The result would provide a visual warning color around the planet when selected, as well as changing the lighting inside the cockpit of the ship once in orbit of the planet. The colors would be like so:

Blue: Planet is 2 or more threat levels below the ship's average tech level
Green: Planet is 1 level below the ship
Yellow: Planet is equal level to the ship
Orange: Planet is 1 level higher than the ship
Red: Planet is 2+ levels above the ship.

Goal:
The ultimate goal of this system is to shrink down the total levels of the game without reducing the variance between worlds that might occur if the game was sunk into a 10 sector system with limited difficulty options on each sector. It adds a simple to understand visual feedback to each world letting the player know - hey, Red Alert, this planet is going to be painful, or blue alert, this planet is safe - without imposing a large number system at a glance. The player can also ascertain the threat level of a planet by using scanners on it once in orbit. This would yield the static "Alpha *" or "Gamma ***" difficulty tracker. Players would start at a tech level of 1, with all other systems sitting at level 0 in the Alpha Sector, and through the course of the tutorial, be taken through the first tier and guided through progressing their ship - causing planets to start progressively displaying as less and less dangerous as the player becomes much more well traveled. In addition, below I will outline a new system of Ore distribution, one that doesn't guarantee ore types on every planet, but favors placing end-tier ores on higher threat level planets within a sector, in order to add diversity. A player is more likely to find Silver on a threat **** or ***** planet, and it might be as visible on the surface as iron might be on a threat ** world. The goal here, in addition to wanting to explore worlds or find gear that might generate on harder worlds, is to diversify world content and encourage you to explore different worlds in order to gather resources. It also makes it easier to find some of the resources you need to progress once you have the strength to move up to a higher threat world.

In addition, in order to address the situation around gear - with purchased/looted gear being the same level as the planet it's on, where higher level gear is required to survive, ultimately making those items useless, I propose two solutions: either randomize the level on gear a small degree (-2 to +2 levels from the planet you're on) or have the gear found in chests be +2 levels from the planet, and purchased items +1. This allows for the player to find and equip some non-standard gear from chests that might actually be interesting once they've cleared a dungeon. It encourages exploration into higher threat planets, feeding into the overall feel of needing to explore in order to progress that I have created through these system tweaks.

The long and short of it - add more progression within a single tier, by giving each tier 5 threat levels to work with, as well as adding a craftable/summonable miniboss to the middle of the tier, while diversifying ore distribution between worlds to focus the player on exploring different worlds to accomplish their goals in a given sector.

The problem right now with the 10 level system is I have no reason to explore other worlds, at all, to complete a sector. I'm able to jump into a given world on a sector, mine all the ores I need in order to craft what I need to progress, then kill the boss and move on. That's not how Starbound was painted to be back in the early days, and I'm sure that's not the intended goal of this game. Yes - I could stop, explore and build, but that really serves no mechanical, functional purpose towards advancing my character through the game itself. My issue is one of advancement and progression, and idling at any given point isn't part of that focus. I can do it, and it's fun for a little while, but there's no mechanical value in any of it.

For planet diversity, I suggested the following in my thread as well: Spreading out ores between worlds. The process is outlined here, specifically and in detail, about how this works:

Diversity in planetary exploration is what this game seeks to provide, in my mind, and as such, I feel that not every planet should have every metal. In addition, some planets might have higher metal contents than others, and the types of metals should be more varied to allow more progression within a tier (Though I do realize that this can potentially cause gearing to get a little out of hand, eventually.) The goal here is to provide diversity in planetary resource distribution, giving additional use to the Scanner system as well as making it easier to find certain metals.

Tiered Ores:
As it stands, we see much of the same ore for the first few tiers of the game, before finally moving into higher tier stuff. I feel that, again, in order to provided a more progressive experience to the game, we should see new metals become more common as we move into different sectors. As such, I provide this ore/metal tiering system, using the first two sectors as an example, with nameless ores to provide my point. Note: These ores are still subject to random distribution, which will be covered below.

Code:

Levels of Rarity:
- Plentiful: Often found on this tier of world.
- Common: Fairly common on this tier of world.
- Average: Average appearance on this tier of world.
- Rare: Rare appearance on this tier of world.
- Trace: Very rare appearance on this tier of world.

Alpha *:
- Tier 1 Early-Tier Ore (Copper) [Common]
- Tier 1 Fuel Ore (Coal) [Average]
- Tier 1 Mid-Tier ore (Iron) [Rare]

Alpha **:
- Tier 1 Early-Tier Ore [Plentiful]
- Tier 1 Fuel Ore [Common]
- Tier 1 Mid-Tier Ore [Average]
- Tier 1 Late-tier Ore (Silver) [Trace]

Alpha ***:
- Tier 1 Early-Tier Ore [Common]
- Tier 1 Fuel Ore [Plentiful]
- Tier 1 Mid-Tier Ore [Common]
- Tier 1 Late-Tier Ore: [Rare]

Alpha ****:
- Tier 1 Early-Tier Ore [Rare]
- Tier 1 Fuel Ore [Plentiful]
- Tier 1 Mid-Tier Ore [Plentiful]
- Tier 1 Late-Tier Ore: [Average]

Alpha *****:
- Tier 1 Early-Tier [Trace]
- Tier 1 Fuel [Common]
- Tier 1 Mid-Tier [Common]
- Tier 1 Late-Tier [Common]

Beta *:
- Tier 1 Fuel [Rare]
- Tier 1 Mid-Tier [Rare]
- Tier 1 Late-Tier [Common]
- Tier 2 Early-Tier (Gold) [Average]
- Tier 2 Mid-Tier (Titanium) [Rare]
- Tier 2 Fuel (Thorium) [Average]

Beta **:
- Tier 1 Fuel [Trace]
- Tier 1 Mid-Tier [Trace]
- Tier 1 Late-Tier [Rare]
- Tier 2 Early-Tier [Common]
- Tier 2 Mid-Tier [Average]
- Tier 2 Fuel [Common]
- Tier 2 Late-Tier (Platinum) [Trace]

Beta ***:
- Tier 2 Early-Tier [P]
- Tier 2 Mid-Tier [C]
- Tier 2 Fuel [P]
- Tier 2 Late-Tier [R]

Beta ****:
- Tier 2 Early-Tier [C]
- Tier 2 Mid-Tier [P]
- Tier 2 Fuel [P]
- Tier 2 Late-Tier [A]

Beta *****:
- Tier 2 Early-Tier: [A]
- Tier 2 Mid-Tier: [C]
- Tier 2 Fuel: [C]
- Tier 2 Late-Tier: [C]

And this system would repeat itself through the course of the game, through each sector. In addition, after defeating the mid-tier boss, an alloy metal (Steel in Tier 1, for example) is available by combining the fuel ore of that tier with the mid-tier smelted metal of that tier. This provides a mid-tier stepping stone for armor pieces, or may simply take its place for crafting the end of tier boss, and as for something to be used to upgrade weapons and armor through the augment system after researching improved armor/damage.

Distribution:
Even though I have listed distribution levels for the different difficulty levels of planets above, there are random factors to ore distribution as well. Those factors include depth, and presence.

For presence, and ore is more likely to appear on a planet the more common it is on that difficulty level. It's likely to find coal and copper on a planet of level Alpha **. To help diversify worlds, I've come up with an "ore slot" system. Specifically, when a planet is generated, based on its size, it has a certain number of slots for ore generation at each depth. Each slot is then rolled from the list of ores that the world is able to have, and an ore may occupy multiple slots. This makes it possible to generate worlds that might bare only copper, or ones that offer tons of silver. Slots are based on size - Tiny planets have 1 slot per depth, Small worlds have 2, Medium worlds have 3, large worlds have 4, and huge worlds have 5. There are three different depth levels, which means that a very large planet has 15 ore slots. In addition, each slot can also have a vein size attribute - further diversifying the ore distribution by having some slots, especially deeper within the core of the world, generate much larger veins of whatever ore is rolled to that slot.

Within each ore slot, the game expects to generate whatever ore might occupy it throughout that depth of the world. The generator doesn't care if it generates coal, or silver, or thorium, or platinum - the ore generation is the same no matter what ore is rolled into that slot. For each slot, the system generates an ore based from a list of available ores, and how common that ore type is to that level of world. Ores are then generated after being rolled into the slots set out on the planet. Through this manner, on a world we normally see a large coal vein near the surface, we might see a large silver vein on a higher tier world. It's also possible to go to a very large world and find every type of ore from that tier.

As for depth, as I stated, there are three layers to each world, and the depth of each layer varies on planet size. The depths are Surface, Underground, and Core. Ores generated in surface slots are more likely to appear visible from the surface, as the name implies. It also extends down into the planet and overlaps slightly with the "undgergound" layer of the world. Underground occupies the area in the middle of the world, sharing a bit of space with the surface layer and the core layer, but ultimately spanning the largest area of the planet. Finally, core is near the heart of the planet, usually offering the highest concentration of ores, but of course protected by the most difficult creatures on the planet. Mining down here for metals is usually much easier than at the surface as far as numbers go, but also much more dangerous.

Ultimately, ores are spread out over the course of the tier, through different worlds at different values and rarities, with end of tier ores being more prevalent in higher difficulty planets. This smooths out the ore progression, makes it easier to find higher tier ores if you're willing to run the risk of more difficult worlds, and diversifies the ore generation from planet to planet, making it worthwhile to seek out new worlds for different materials. I feel a system similar to this, where one can't simply progress by working on a single planet, would be much more conducive towards the "explorer" feel of the game we were originally told of.

As for scaling, I would suggest the following list, though this is even subject to further tweaking:
Google Doc

I haven't worked out player health and monster damage quite yet, that's still to come, but I wanted to get feedback on the scaling size and speed all the way to a 50th level maximum. Some quick excerpts for those of you not inclined to clicky the link:

This assumes equal level weapons to monsters, the weapon number being number of swings (attacks) from an average speed, average damage weapon.

Level 1: 10 HP, 1.8 WDPS
Level 2: 13 HP, 2.3 WDPS
Level 6: 26 HP, 4.8 WDPS
Level 10: 62 HP, 11 WDPS
Level 25: 766 HP, 133 WDPS
Level 50: 4709 HP, 784.9 WDPS

Those numbers might be a bit off for some people, and if so, I'd love to hear that, and what you would like to see as an ideal maximum level damage/monster health number. The goal of this system is to allow for a smooth progression of attacks-to-monster-health, so that a player is able to survive an encounter with a monster roughly up to 5 or so levels higher/lower than their equivalent weapon level. It also makes it so that one usually cannot 1-shot most monsters until several levels further, often anywhere between 2-4 tiers ahead. This adds more back and forth to the game, which was what Tiy had originally suggested as his goal a the start of development in a blog post on this site.

So what do you think? Am I off-base? Or could we use a bit more variance to our worlds, our purpose and our goals in the game? As it stands, I really strongly feel that this 10 level system is incredibly flawed and extremely detrimental to the flow of the game. I'm curious to hear what others think.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you. The level crunch makes the game seem short. Although, I am certain that they will add more content per tier as they go. However, I'd hope it to be not just sideways content as well. The 100 threat levels really do add a feel of accomplishment and progression, even if they aren't very varied.

Personally, I think the difficulty change from tier to tier should be not unlike that from regular to hardmode in Terraria. (I swear to Kluexx I'll gut the next person that tells me to stop comparing the two) Because, if you think about it, every tier in Starbound is like a new game. The first tier is the tutorial and basics, mining, down-to-earth, focusing more on individual planets. Whereas, second tier introduces more of an exploration aspect, as you set out to loot planet after planet for robot parts. (I think it introduces guns as well) It would make sense as you get more and more technologically advanced to assume a god-like form that you would have to go through dozens of sets of armors.

Before anyone says "IT'S IN BETA!" I'll say that this is one of the more informative feedback posts I've ever read on this forum. Also I will string you up and let The Others take you away.

 

just going to go out there and say i have silver armor and on level 2 planets i get 1 shot

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say a tier is like the NM/HM flip in Terraria, I'd say.. comparing the jump between 3 or so tiers might be more accurate to that flip. But good on you either way for using the comparison right. And LOL at your final comment.

I see the new patch went through to address some of the scaling but I still honestly believe that sectors should cover 5 levels in themselves, and my scaling sheet should indicate that in some fashion.

 

For me, the thing that really sets Starbound away from the rest of the sandbox games are the npcs and their villages. I think what made Skyrim so popular were the many random (and scripted) encounters that just threw content in your face and made the whole world seem so alive. You could also influence those events to go one way to leave your mark on the world, through complex interactions with the AI, not just killing hordes of bandits.

I think Tiy and the CF gang are really going to make some major strides in that direction with procedurally generated quests and random encounters. I think that Starbound will be the next Skyrim.

EDIT: And if anyone tells me not to compare Skyrim and Starbound.............

 

I gotta raid on WoW right now, but I'll definitely reply to this in about 3-4 hours.

 

I can't offer much feedback than saying it does take away from the feeling of progression. I read on another thread they would implement an "Easy, Medium, Hard" Rating to the planets , however I do like your "Star" idea better

 

Thanks for the compliment!

@KevinFragger2427: This is something I really hope comes with future patches. The worlds, their towns and peoples.. everything is so dynamic. I really hope that our actions start to have lasting effects on the worlds we visit, and we can interact more deeply with the NPCs we encounter. I can't wait until the quest system is implemented. I will be a very happy man.

 

These are the kind of numbers we're trying to avoid. Starts off okay, but the numbers just suddenly ramp up, and that just makes it no worse than what other games have done poorly. Progression is good, but we're not trying to totally blow things out of proportion. Steadier numbers, please.

I have made a mock up of my own, to show what I think the scaling should be. Edited with new system in mind, (in between levels greyed out)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmrAGN7nHsW-dE11cWo5WTh4TDVnN0F2VVVSc2dTUEE&usp=sharing

 

as far as I can tell, the threat level changing to just 10 different levels is not helping me find a planet that I can easily explore without being murdered every 2 minutes because of some ridiculous monsters doing ridiculous damage and my shield and armor not helping one bit