New planet level mechanic discussion

Hola
Im curious as to what peoples opinion of the new level system is for planets? I suppose a cynical view is it acts as a slight buffer to pad out game time by making players have to do certain actions to progress to higher levels, however i suppose this was already present as the penguin UFO of almost certain doom was the only way to collect the molten core anyways...

HOWEVER, from what ive read, it seems a key reason for the overhaul was to stop people gettin insta-killed on high level planets. I understand the frustration of this as its happened to me but could these planets not just be avoided if this was an issue? In my short play through before the level overhaul, higher level planets just acted as a nice risk vs reward system that could be used at times but was this just because i hadnt got into the game fully, where these planets vital to progression early game? If so then i understand the new system, the structure prevents people gettin over leveled/ killed. Perhaps the old system also offered a chance for un balanced gameplay also if through an amount of scummy tactics allowed a new character to get a high level weapon.

In summary then with my understanding i didn't see much wrong with the old system, which was quite unique in games, yes there was very difficult planets, but they could just be avoided but of course this is somewhat of an opnion more than me critiquing the new and improved Koala.

 

I will just copy/paste what I wrote in another thread:

"May I add that I don't bother with exploring planets with the current tier-system? If all planets have the same tier/threat level, I just stick to one until I'm done (and save a lot of coal). Maybe they can re-implement the old system: Starting at threat lvl 1 planet, then you see that there is a lvl 7 next to your planet and think "Hell, I am gonna try this". Plus, you had more progress in one tier, since it got harder from 1 to 10. It really felt like you were making progress.

The other thing is about progress/blueprints. Stupidly mine ore underground until you have enough, then craft all of your armor/weapons, even more mining to be able to summon and kill the boss, done. Using the upgrade gives you all the new blueprints for the next tier armor/weapons, you do the same again. You don't have to search for new things, you just get them. That's so damn boring. I know this is beta, but this has to change. I am spending most of the time mining clonk/wiggles-style."

Ps: It's a pity, but threads like these will just vanish on page 2 while those crappy "look what I've found" or "insert sarcastic title" threads stick on the first.

 

Lycaon, +1 to everything you said.

 

I think the real problem right now is that differing biomes serve little difference. I hope this is addressed in coming updates. If there were incentive to head for differing biomes, and thus different worlds within the same sector, we'd see more need to explore instead of sticking to our starter until we're prepped for heading to the beta sector... and then handpicking a good place to start in the beta sector and staying there until we're ready to head to gamma, etc.

Honestly, I'm glad they compressed the threat system into a single threat per sector. Every world's the same threat.. thus every world has the same odds of giving the same thing.. thus people aren't skipping over the easy worlds to get the gear from the hard worlds, so they can guarantee OP themselves.

I think the boss is a good reason to bring this up. It's difficult to balance a boss for people who have only explored low threat worlds, versus people who have only explored high threat worlds. We ended up with an obscenely hard boss because it was expected for you to have things from the high threat worlds. With the system as it is now, there need only be one threat to balance the boss for. If you feel the boss should be balanced toward the high threat worlds in the sector anyway, then there still stands little reason to go to any other threat world in the sector when preparing for the boss. If you like variety, it's still out there... just without all the different labels.

 

All planet types unlocked from the start, why do i need to go to a gamma sector to see a grassland type
And the planet type should have mini-biomes
Copy/paste what I wrote in another thread:

I would like to see more info on planets, Show the image of a planet then: Size : (huge,large, small, tiny) Biome: (Desert, Arid, Forest, Jungle, Moon, Snow) and more types of planets and special effect, some examples:

Planet type: Moon, Size: Small, Special: Airless, Low Gravity
Planet type: Barren, Size: Huge, Special: Low Temperature, High Gravity
Planet type: Asteroid, Size: Tiny, Special: Airless, Low Gravity
Planet type: Desert, Size: Medium, Special: High Temperature, Radioactive

So exploring those planets would require some tech before landing.
And a Research or filter tool to pick a planet.

They should put the threat level again so T1 planet with high threat would have some of these special status, it would be nice to go to a radioactive barren wasteland and discover a underground Apex lab with some lore on what happen there and Apex lore in general.

Right now there's no need to explore other worlds, if your starter world has vines to make bandages you don't need to explore just dig and get all the stuff to boss and then go explore tier 2, and just repeat again and again.

High threat level not only the enemies would be difficult but the planet it self would pose a greater threat.

Threat 2-3 the world start getting more dangerous like spike, traps, poison lakes.
Threat 4-5 minor world effect, like if you stay up during the day or night you start losing some health or air like those special effect i said, plus the 2-3 threat.
Threat 6-7 normal world but with tougher monster.
Threat 8-9 same with 4-5.
Threat 10 Max difficult monster for that Tier, planet its self is a threat, and survival skill is put to test.

 

reimplementing level system alpha sector thread level 0-1-2-3, beta sector 3-4-5, gamma 5-6-7, 7-8-9, and so on
if there are 10 sectores we will end up with 2*10 + 1 = 21 thread level

0 are home/starting planets, peacefull planets mostly without civilization
1 (in alpha, and 3 (beta) 5 (gamma) ....) are "normal" planets
2 more structures, more resources, stronger and more enemies
3 rough planets (ice) and most moons, cold and dangerous but rewarding dungeons and if you dig deep enough there are plenty minerals

diagramms

 

@ Azghall+Soraphis nice suggestions

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks we need the threat levels back. There is so much potential (exploration, biomes, etc.) in it, as you showed in your posts. But instead of completely repeating a certain biome-pattern of planets in each tier, I would love to see new biomes in each tier.

Like:

new planet type at tier 2 = desert planets
new planet rype at tier 3 = ice planets
new planet rype at tier 4 = (under-)water planets
new planet rype at tier 5 = radioactive planets
new planet rype at tier 6 = no atmosphere/moons (subsequently after underwater/radioactive planets since high pressure underwater and no pressure/atmosphere in space do have similarities in equipment requirements)
.
.
new planet rype at tier 10 = high gravitational, radioactive, low atmosphere, volcanic/tentacle planets experiencing their end of lifespan (meteor shower/impact, dying sun, alien invasion etc.)

Furthermore, there should be a reason why we would want to visit a certain biome.

Within the tiers, each threat level will hold certain advantages like ore distribution (more/better ore), rewards for completing dungeons (finding armor/weapon blueprints, upgrades for your weapons/armor and helpful/required techs for new planet types - I personally would LOVE to see this in game. Upgrading your stuff is just so much fun). Just an example: threat-level 1-3 contains basic armor/weapon blueprints (e.g. copper armor), 4-6 an upgrade (e.g. copper armor -> iron armor), 7-9 further upgrades, techs and finally tier 10 (only here you can confront boss)

This is only a very raw sketch for tier/threat-level-progress (thanks guys above).

 

Since many people seem to be unhappy with the current starmap, here's one suggestion:
Remove the sectors, all tiers should be merged into one starmap. You now can zoom out from 1. a planet to 2. the sun system to 3. the local neighbourhood to 3. the galaxy to 4. galaxy overview.
How to merge threat levels with one consitent universe - here comes the critical point:

Some people want to have a perturbed universe, meaning tier 10 planets next to tier 1 planets, completely, randomly mixed.
Pros:

• more sandbox-feeling
• explore every planet you want to and when you want to
• due to this perturbation/mixture you are forced to travel (if no adequate planet is near you)

Cons:

• you can't go to those high-lvl planets anyway because environment will kill you (at least it should be like that)
  
• searching for adequate planets would need a lot of time (possible solution: introduce suggestions from your board computer) since planets of very high threat levels can surround your current planet (e.g. starter planet surrounded by planets of threat lvl 100)
• you need more fuel because you are forced to find adequate planets which may be far away
  
• ruining the progress-curve by the dig-down-and-loot-everything-you-can-exploit or by finding a chest on the surface of a tier 5 planet which won't kill you instantly because there are still life-friendly planets even at high tiers

Some people want to have a certain linear, continuous progress/ordered universe, get from tier 1 (threat level 1-10) to tier 2 (threat level 11-20) and so on.
Pros:

• the feeling of making constant progress which
  
• can't be ruined that easily (e.g. by exploiting)
• you don't need as many fuel as in a perturbed universe since it is ordered (adequate planets are near you)

Cons:

• a more "ordered" universe, less sandbox-feeling. The galaxy may be built up like the Bohr model (or an onion with many layers) - the further you move away from your starter planet, the higher the threat levels.
  
• you can't go everywhere = restricted exploration

A solution for the dig-down-and-loot-everything-you-can-exploit: Make the dirt/ground/soil only mineable with proper equipment e.g. tier 4 planets require a gold(=tier 3) pickaxe to be able to mine anything.

Ps: Also needed and wanted by many, many players: planet scanners/probes.
Pps: If you have another suggestions/pros/cons please tell us!

 

Keep the compression, there were only two levels you bothered with, the highest of the tier for gear and the lowest to farm materials in safety, rest were a waste of time.

That said the tier system needs to be shot. It's horribly artificial and gets in the way of everything. I really like the idea of threat levels meaning something beyond the creatures having bigger teeth though. You can tie that into more organic tiers too, rather then making yet another starmap you make an inoculation against the toxic atmospheres of threat level 6 (or make it even more organic and say threat level zeta) planets allowing you to explore those and so on.

And yes there needs to be proper biomes too with different materials you need to progress making exploration and travel important. Proper coal/ore seams wouldn't go astray in that task, not these silly little blobs you spend 5 minutes digging to find. Maybe have some of the stuff you need in the towns and villages so you have to trade for it (or just murder them all).

 

I think the idea of exploitation as i originally mentioned is one of the big things so i think so form of limitation is good/ necessary, perhaps some kind of scaling element could be implemented but not seen as the overriding factor?
Nonetheless i think with games like this, or indeed any game that has randomized loot, the hook and attraction is that you manage to find somewhat OP loot, maybe more shouldve been done to change the loot ( particularly how long it would remain OP) rather than seemingly remove the ability to get stuff.

With regard to reasons why we would visit other planets then i feel this is very important to address. Peoples idea of Starbound is 'Terraria in space', where the individual planets are interesting but when you get bored you can travel to another! Certainly theres enough going on in one planet for them to seem complete, but as everyone has mentioned in this thread theres no real attraction to go to different planets of the same threat level. Yes, there may be an event there, e.g. a prison complex, dungeon or settlement, but these are rarely more than a time waster.... Because o the current system the mobs are the same level as the player pretty much so the loot is accordingly poop most of the time. Theres nto even a big chest with definate good stuff at the end.

This is why the old system was more enjoyable in this regard, you could explore difficult worlds that you know you would face a challenge in, but with that risk comes the chance of good reward. I dont like to think that the games exploration element ( a key feature) was fundamentally changed just because some people found it hard...

Perhaps a different overhaul was needed, instead of that to the level system;

The reason it was done was so people werent under leveled (or indeed over leveled) when facing the bosses mainly, but this is only a problem in terms of balancing and what not because of the importance placed on the bosses. How about the bosses being less vital to the overall progression?

 

I agree with the need for more variation in biomes as well although i think on that point beta is beta and theyve said that theyll be going through different tiers so should hopefulyl add more content to spruce thigns up a bit.

 

It's less an issue of variation and more an issue of the differences actually meaning something. It's rather varied now, especially when you get into higher tiers, it just doesn't mean anything other then looks and maybe a bit of cold.

 

I agree, this whole sector thing is kinda of not fun... I want each experience to be different when I play starbound... I don't want to know if planets near me are level 1 planets. They should just remove this level stuff from planets and make it percentages.. Right now from what the game is coming along it's a bit disappointing because all the games you play are gonna be the same, get stuff, go to new sector, get stuff go to new sector.

It should be holy shit, I'm next to a snow planet that has really strong enemies.

2 second game you play , holy shit I'm next to a snow planet, but they are really weak.

 

Thats what i mean

 

Indeed

Given all the planets are pretty much the level youre at because of the way its structured, surely its HARDER to get the required loot to take on the bosses as the items dropped are also the same level? I thought the restructuring was meant to avoid this issue??

The travelling to different planets now simply becomes a grind as you run through all the events you can find on the surface and hope you get a good drop...

 

So you're more the perturbed universe guy and yes, right now it's always "stupidly mine ore underground until you have enough, then craft all of your armor/weapons, even more mining to be able to summon and kill the boss, done".

 

All day, every day

I think its worse than that, i have and have had enough ore and metals for a good while now, its just a case of getting good enough items now as well :/

 

Interesting suggestions you got there. I especially like the idea of planet hazards.

I'd really like to see planets with randomized ore selection. As it stands the only thing I've seen in latest patch that isn't consistent through all worlds (save for higher-tier ores like Aegisalt) is that iron disappears completely and entirely come Gamma sector. Now, I don't claim to know what the devs are thinking in regards to this, but that seems a bit superficial... Why not have a "rarity of <insert ore here>" that's NOT based on tiers? Why is my starting planet all that I need for the entirety of the alpha sector. I understand that no matter how rare any given ore is, people can strip mine the entire planet and still do it, but I'd like to see much less incentive to. Though, that being said, I'd also like to see some incentive to setting up a home base on a world..... perhaps free warp travel back to home regardless of distance? At least then you'd have tons of room to store all of your stuff and not have to worry about running out of enough fuel to get back to it all.

Progression as it is is seriously grindy. It starts with the pickaxe, because who wants to mine slow, when you'll be mining for the whole game, right? You grab some stone and make a pick, then you find enough coper, then enough silver, then enough gold, then enough platinum, then enough diamonds. Progression is based heavily on a single ore in each tier.. first it's a little spread out needing copper silver and iron, but then you just need iron, just need titanium, just need Aegisalt, Just need Cerulium, and then just need Rubium. That's not something you see as much in other sandbox games. Some of them, sure, but let's take Minecraft for example. There's a bit of a grind, like all sandboxes, to reach the endgame content, but having the best weapons and armor in the game is not as necessary. The game was more focused around building than exploration and adventure though.
I think as it is right now, Starbound and its users are having a bit of an identity crisis, not knowing what it is they really want from the game. People who want to build have no reason to, people who don't want to mine are being forced to, people who want to adventure find it hard to do so, etc. And everyone is tossing their opinion into the pot hoping it will be taken seriously. I know we all want to have our cake and eat it too, I'm guilty of wanting it as well. It'd be great if we could ALL have our cake and eat it too, but then comes the ugly beast known as Balance that wrecks most of it. I mean, the need for adventure wrecks the need to mine, and the need to mine wrecks the need for adventure... things of that nature. "Fixing" one selling point winds up hampering another, and so on.

Now, this is all based on the content we see before us. I don't know if the devs have a plan in mind for what will bring it all together down the road... and I really wish they'd share it with us so we're not guessing in the dark here, barking about our own opinions of how the game should be. If they do have a solid roadmap for what the content is to be like (and it's not entirely what I'm seeing through the current system) they should just tell us... we're testing things here, right? If we're to expect things coming, we should know about it. Perfect example of this was the drills. People whined about the mining speed of a copper pickaxe, and then we saw drills show up. Was that due to the whining or was it planned all along? You need to share this kind of information with your testers! Or at least with those of us that are actually TESTING the game and not just PLAYING it.

 

I think blueprints are the biggest problem. You spend tons of time mining one planet, to make one item. That summons one boss. Then once you beat him, boom! Your character is a genius and knows how to craft everything. including top tier weapons.

The weapons and armor themselves beat any armor or weapons you find or buy on planets, so there's no reason to search.

The whole system is so linear that you don't need to do anything but mine.
Why would I search planets? I'm already decked out and overpowered for my tier.
Why would I expkore? The next tier has new biomes I'm missing out on.
Why would I settle a cool base? This sector will become obsolete in 5 minutes when I fight the boss.

Blueprints should be found. Maybe its in a dungeon. Or an apex lab. Or an avian vendor. Items to create the weapons and armor should be more diverse. I should have to kill enemies, or search sewers and vendors, or expkore different biomes to make my armor. Not mine 20 durasteel and get 400 pixels. Terraria isn't the best example, but if you wanted certain things you had to work. Want shadow armor? Kill this boss. Want meterite armor? Search for a meteor. Want that cool sword? Search for floating islands. Want a spell? Travel to hell and fight these guys.

It was all biome based. This game has way more biomes, so way more opportunities to spread out crafting and make it more in depth.
The matter blocks are an EXCELLENT example of spreading out resources.

Its all just so...easy.

 

Good points! And, to be honest, I expect Starbound to be an adventure game where we can explore tons of different things instead of a mining simulator If someone likes to mine, it's ok, but i would like to have an alternative - find ores/bars in shipwrecks for example. I mean this game is called Starbound, not Dirtbound
Well written!

Exactly.