Mining Tips?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ThorfinnS, Mar 5, 2020.

  1. ThorfinnS

    ThorfinnS Astral Cartographer

    Trying to take my game to a new level, and, like most forums, the search function here leaves something to be desired.

    Practicing the fishing tips posted by One More Day, Grimgaw and others, I'm to the point I can consistently upgrade the pick on Wednesday.

    I thought the copper pick would help a lot, but I'm not consistently getting much past 20 or 25. Now granted, my luck hasn't been the greatest -- the best luck I've seen is a pyramid (0.042). Best dive was floor 34, on a neutral luck day. (Wasn't checking the actual value then. Or at least I wasn't logging it.)

    The stumbling point is always that there are a floor or 3 that the ladder doesn't appear until there's only a handful of stones left. I only have L1 mining on day 5, so no stairs -- cherry bombs only. Neptune's Glaive is not common enough to build a strategy on. ;) Usually, the problem levels have no big groupings of stones, so cherry bombs don't help much. And I'm chewing through 15 or more chubs/smallmouths as is. I'm still wasting 1 in 10 or so (swinging the pick where the stone is not) so that's something, but I doubt that's going to make that much of a difference -- 45 or so wasted swings per day isn't costing me enough time to add much more than a level or maybe 2, I wouldn't think.

    I've seen mentions of an apparently achievable goal of 40 on day 5. Any tips for coaxing those reluctant ladders to spawn?
     
    • UnexpectedParole

      UnexpectedParole Phantasmal Quasar

      I'm starting to think a lot more folks re-run the day once they've seen which rocks spawn ladders under than want to admit. -Especially certain speed runners. I am getting results similar to yours.

      But another thing to consider is are you getting up at 6am and going directly to the mines via the backwoods? I know I am having to go to Willy's at 9am which puts me in the mines much later in the day (than leaving the farm straight off at 6am would). Maybe those few hours are much more effective than the ones we are having?
       
      • Elenna101

        Elenna101 Subatomic Cosmonaut

        Eh, if you're talking official speedrun.com speedruns, they aren't rerunning the days, because that would have to be counted as part of the time. (Also it would be obvious on the recording/Twitch stream).
        It is absolutely possible to reach 40 on day 5, although not consistently - check out TheHaboo's speedruns on Twitch if you have the time - but it takes a lot of skill and practice. That's without the copper pick, mind you. The copper pick isn't really useful until you reach iron levels, because most rocks in the copper levels take one swing to break either way.
        Also, Haboo is currently using a trick called animation cancelling, which is basically that if you press r+right shift+delete right after using a tool, it'll cancel the animation and save a little time. (He has those buttons mapped to other buttons on his mouse to make that easier.) But even without that he was getting 35 fairly consistently and 40 occasionally.

        How often are you killing enemies? Enemies always have a 15% chance of spawning a ladder if you kill them over empty stone (as opposed to over dirt or your hitbox) so killing the enemies that you are able to kill quickly should help. Note that if you can find a club, right-clicking and then immediately mashing left-click will give a bunch of strong hits at once. This can kill enemies very quickly, especially if they're against a wall. Check out the crates on floors 24 and 29 if you can get there, they have a good chance of a club on days 5-7.
        Also, zooming out helps quite a bit in seeing if there's a ladder already on the floor. If there is, then you can't get another ladder from rocks, only from enemies. (The ladder on floor 12 doesn't count for that, because it's part of the level map and not randomly generated. But on floor 12 you should probably be running straight to the end and taking that ladder anyways, not breaking rocks.) The screenshot feature can be helpful to check for pre-generated ladders on bigger floors.
         
        • ThorfinnS

          ThorfinnS Astral Cartographer

          Could be mistaken, but I think those are randomly generated at runtime. I've tried the savegame mod just to see, and IIRC, it's not consistent.

          I'll take a look. Thanks.

          Been wondering if I should do the axe on day 3 instead. Though the copper pick sure speeds up day 6, so it's probably better to do the pick.

          With the rusty sword, as little as possible, unless there are only a few enemies. Even with the steel sword, killing critters is obscenely slow. I can't change from pick to sword and back consistently as rapidly as I'd like so it's a lot of wasted time waiting for the flies (for instance) to get back between hits.

          I do that. Can't swing the pick very accurately at less than 85% or so, but I'm getting better. But I do use the zoom buttons to go to 75% and "flash" the level. I've used the screenshot, too, though that slows things to a crawl. I'm thinking pre-gen ladders must be daily-luck based. (Apart from 12, as you say.) With Bat or Skull days, there are not a whole lot of them.

          Speaking of which, why are there like 4x as many Skull days as Star days? And Day 5 is worse than that. Out of a whole page of day 5 logs, I have NO Stars and 9 Skulls. Bats outnumber Pyramids about 2:1. Is that typical, or is that just Thorfinn Luck?
           
          • UnexpectedParole

            UnexpectedParole Phantasmal Quasar

            I've watched haboo.
            And I've seen his "skill" it involves running into the floor a bit and picking a random rock and there being a ladder under it or the next.
            No rhyme or reason or logic to why that rock and not the 6 or 7 or what-ever he passed before.

            I don't kill enemies as it takes too long. What do you mean by "over your hitbox"? I know what open dirt is but not that.

            I always play at 75% zoom. Not finding ladders that are pre-spawned on a level is not slowing me down. It is literally having to break all but the last 2 or 3 rocks on too many levels that slows me down.
             
            • WilliamZ

              WilliamZ Phantasmal Quasar

              I believe that nowadays the best strategy to mining would be to find a way to increase your combat level quickly, so you can purchase the explosive ammo, I cannot think of the best monster for this than the sprite dusts since we need to have a massive ammount of coal by year 1, assuming that you're going to make jars.

              The problem with this is the weapon, the weapons that the game give to you sucks, I dislike of the Obsidian Edge as well because of the -1 in speed, but you only get her in lv90 and this would break the mining strategy anyways (since you need to reach lv90 in the first place), checking the wiki the closest thing that we can get our hands into is the Claymore, I remember purchasing it on my first gameplay but I can't say today if this is a good weapon for the ice floors, but it's stronger than Neptune's Glaive so it should do the job.
              A solid choice would be the wood club, it isn't hard to find and can kill multiple enemies at once.
               
              • UnexpectedParole

                UnexpectedParole Phantasmal Quasar

                I've used the claymore in previous farms. I quite liked it. But then again I like the obsidian edge too, so what do I know?

                As far as "speedrunners" like thehaboo don't reload goes. I saw a thread the other day which mentioned how thehaboo used a map to mark which acorns would drop double before re-loading. So I 'll hazard a guess that isn't the only thing people reload for.

                I can't find it now but I was certain i had just read a post detailing that the ladders that spawned under rocks were "preset" from the night save, and thus repeatable. But ones spawned by monster kills were not.

                I hadn't bother to start a tester farm to try it out yet, I'm still chasing a different plan/theory/scheme.

                But I'll do it maybe this weekend then to finally know for sure.
                 
                  Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
                • WilliamZ

                  WilliamZ Phantasmal Quasar

                  I dislike of the Obsidian because Brutes still can force their way and hit you and on the magma levels the monsters starts to hit really hard, I know that a lot of players can hit the lava levels using the copper pickaxe but I can't withstand the ridiculous amount of energy to break a single rock and I'm not a luck person.

                  I saw a run from the Haboo and he got combat exp to purchase explosive ammo very quickly, I didn't payed attention to what he did, but he chased for the wood club soon as possible.
                   
                    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
                  • UnexpectedParole

                    UnexpectedParole Phantasmal Quasar

                    I don't usually have too much trouble with the obsidian edge once I've gotten it. I find I'm usually needing food for energy anyway, so the health repair is bonus?

                    I don't recall the last time I played where I didn't have the steel pick by the end of salmonberry season. So I don't get too far into the 40s before I have it. I always have it before the 60s I think.

                    I've been pushing lately to get copper watering can on the 6th, copper axe on the 8th. pickaxe to copper and steel 14-18th. I only end up with about 20 sprinklers at the end of spring that way. But it works for me. I'm not a min maxxer.
                     
                    • ThorfinnS

                      ThorfinnS Astral Cartographer

                      Watched TheHaboo. Both the run to 50 and the first third of the run to 120. Apart from the fact he got a crap-ton more map-gen ladders, it looks pretty similar, though he goes after slimes more than I do. Not that it turns out it did him much good -- unless I missed something, just one slime ladder in the whole shootin' match, and there were still enemies on the levels when he found a ladder, so it wasn't the higher rate after killing all foes.

                      Once he starts using cherry bombs extensively, it's less useful -- in a "real" game, such extravagant use of copper and coal is crippling. IME. I use them when I gain more than I spend, like clusters of 4+ nodes, but blowing up stones just to find a ladder? Maybe at end of day to get one ladder for an elevator level. I can't bring myself to trade 4 ore and 1 coal for eight rocks. But maybe I should rethink that. Milking 20 and 40 regains ore pretty quickly once I get them both unlocked.

                      And, of course, doing it spread out over 3 days means he's got an extra 540 stamina, the equivalent of 12 chubs. Plus some insane luck with foraging. Yeah, I guess I'm within spitting distance, though I do mis-swing a lot more than he does, and am not as good at combat. I should have been logging how many floors had map-gen ladders for more than just the last few runs. Of those, I've been getting 2 or less in the first 27-29 floors, apart from the guaranteed ones. He had a lot more than that. But my runs were with 2 Skulls, 3 Bats and 1 Neutral. Daily luck affects that, as I recall. Think I'll try sleeping until I get a Star day and give it a shot.

                      [EDIT]
                      Craziest luck. Wednesday got Ancient Seed and Dinosaur Egg.
                      Thursday got Neptune's Glaive, Treasure Chest, and Ancient Seed.

                      Gonna start another one rather than gimp this run by not using the Glaive on what amounts to a trial run.
                      [/EDIT]
                       
                        Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
                      • Elenna101

                        Elenna101 Subatomic Cosmonaut

                        What I like to do is put pick and sword next to each other in the inventory and then use the middle mouse button (scroll wheel) to scroll between them.

                        That's just you, sorry. I'm pretty sure the chance of best luck is equal to the chance of worst luck, and same for good/bad luck.

                        Definitely don't kill things that take a bunch of time (e.g. slimes and flies). I was more talking about the insects that fly back and forth in lines, and maybe the grubs if they're next to a wall and you can kill them without letting them turn into flies. Maybe the crabs too, since they have a chance of dropping cherry bombs.
                        By "over your hitbox" I basically meant that if they're close enough to you to hurt you, they can't drop a ladder since it would basically spawn right underneath you.

                        Yeah, I was talking about his real-time-based speedruns, he does reload in challenge runs like "make as much money as possible in year 1" which are based on in-game time.

                        His community center speedruns might be closer to the kind of situation you're looking at, in those he mostly tries to get to 35 or 40 on day 5, and doesn't really use bombs much. And, of course, if you're looking at the videos posted to YouTube you're seeing the most successful runs and not the many runs he killed early because mines were not as successful/lucky.
                        Speaking of which, I realized I might have exaggerated how often he gets to floor 40 on day 5 because the unsuccessful runs are not as memorable. But it's definitely possible.
                         
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                        • UnexpectedParole

                          UnexpectedParole Phantasmal Quasar

                          Frankly, I've been getting to level 80 around the end of the first harvest of strawberries anyway, which is when farming 6 lands give or take so the gold isn't an issue.
                          My issue is more with the amount of iron that can be collected in those first few days. I'd ideally like 25 ore for the axe upgrade, 25 ore for the pick upgrade, and 25 for a stables. plus ore for a bee hive, recycling machine and other various bits/bobs. All before salmonberry season while fishing for 100 strawberries before the 13th.

                          I put the sword first and the pick second and use the hotkeys number pad 1 and 2. I use the arrow keys to move with my left hand and the right hand is on the number keys ready to swap out instantaneously.

                          I ran a test run today going straight to the mines with 9 salmonberries, and 15 parsnips. I was in the mine at 7am and struggled to get to level 15 and have time to run home before 2am. There were several levels that were just stupid long to find the stairs on. I got more than the 45 copper I needed/wanted. But still.. it is so far from 30 let alone 40 I don't see it\ unless we are talking about trashing farms due to not good luck on day 5.
                           
                          • ThorfinnS

                            ThorfinnS Astral Cartographer

                            He said at the beginning of the Bundle run that L40 is maybe 1 out of 20 tries, but L30 is reasonable.

                            After some more practice, I've realized three things I was not sufficiently appreciating:
                            1. How big an effect daily luck has,
                            2. Left mouse is not enough; you need to also be spamming "C" as fast as you can, and,
                            3. Rock crabs and duggies are definitely worth killing if you encounter them.
                            Between them, yeah, L30 is quite achievable, even for for my skill level, L35 maybe half the time with Star luck. Haven't yet made L40, but if I got started a little earlier (i.e., not upgrading the pick so I have to wait until Clint opens) I could see it happening. Or if I get a good weapon upgrade, or a good run of rock crabs or duggies. I'm still a little stingy with the cherry bombs I find; I've been saving them to use on iron, where they are really useful.

                            At about the 54 minute mark in his sub-3 hour bundle run, you see his explosive ammo costs only 100g. Version 1.4 increased the cost to 300g, decreased the blast radius to 2, and added the combat level requirement.
                             
                            • UnexpectedParole

                              UnexpectedParole Phantasmal Quasar

                              Explosive ammo requires the slingshot which is acquired on level 40 right?

                              How does explosive ammo get you to 40 on day 5 then?

                              I think luck plays a huge part in it, which is why I get frustrated for all these folks building guides around "can get to 35 or 40"..

                              I really think you can't without good luck.
                               
                              • KThomas14

                                KThomas14 Subatomic Cosmonaut

                                Buying Explosive Ammo now requires a slingshot AND having the ability to craft it, which is unlocked at Combat level 8. You used to only need to have a Slinghot, until the ammo was nerfed in 1.4 (it's also 3x the cost and has a smaller explosive radius). It won't have any effect on the initial push down the mines, although it still has some utility in Skull Cavern once money is no longer a constraint.
                                 
                                • Elenna101

                                  Elenna101 Subatomic Cosmonaut

                                  Yeah, that's probably more accurate than what I was saying before, especially without animation cancelling. (And yes, this is assuming you go on a good or best luck day.)

                                  It doesn't - in the bundle runs he uses explosive ammo to get from floor 40 to 80 in (usually) one day.
                                   
                                  • ThorfinnS

                                    ThorfinnS Astral Cartographer

                                    Truth. Pity, really. There's so much that bad luck really messes up. Which is why the min-max people just restart if they get poor luck day. Or, as the speedrun people do, go back to sleep and wait until they get a good luck day. The difference between Skull and Star (admittedly I'm a little lean on Star luck data) looks to make a difference of 30-40% in terms of how many rocks have to be broken to find ladders, so at least 6 levels. As measured by energy use, BTW, so it does not adjust for the number of copper or gem nodes you found. In fact, one of the other things I realized this morning is that TheHaboo also knew exactly how many copper he was shooting for; presumably once he hit that, he'd have stopped mining copper at all and focused on breaking rocks for ladders.

                                    Which makes me wonder -- having the pick already upgraded, I need only 25 copper ore for the axe. Maybe once I have that, I'm better off doing that, too, focusing on finding ladders from one-hit rocks and easy kills, and leaving all the ore and gem nodes alone?

                                    Just as Wednesday is rain, and Spring 13 is clear, Spring 5 being clear and daily luck of 0.07 (or whatever) would have put the min-maxers/speedrunners/more casual gamers all on an even footing. I'd think hardcoding luck for at least days 1-3 and 5 would have resulted in a better game. That one RNG value makes such a huge difference for the pace of the game.

                                    Does anyone know if those crystals or whatever they are on the cold levels ever spawn ladders? Or are they more like the weeds of the dirt levels, only more annoying?

                                    [EDIT]
                                    If I'm understanding the Wiki, the extreme values of luck deliver a full +/-50%! The base value is 2% per rock. Perfectly good luck is 3% per rock, perfectly lousy luck is 1%. That's HUGE!

                                    I'm not seeing that much difference, no, but I'm not getting perfect luck, either.
                                    [/EDIT]

                                    [EDIT2]
                                    I was misunderstanding it. Daily luck makes a difference of +/- 100%! That is, the base 2% is 0% for crappy luck, 4% for great luck. Of course, that's adjusted up by 1/(number of rocks left), so there's always SOME chance.
                                    [/EDIT2]
                                     
                                      Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
                                    • KThomas14

                                      KThomas14 Subatomic Cosmonaut

                                      I'm 90% confident the crystals don't spawn ladders; I've certainly never seen them spawn one. They will very rarely drop a refined quartz bar, but the odds are so rare it's not worth farming them. If they happen to be in the way or near a dust sprite, I'll destroy them, but it's not worth spending time on them.
                                       
                                      • ThorfinnS

                                        ThorfinnS Astral Cartographer

                                        That's what I've been doing. When I roll the wheel slowly, it goes one inventory box at a time. When I roll it quickly, a single "click" of the mouse wheel might move 4 boxes. It looks like the driver has built-in acceleration that I can't disable, or at least can't figure out how. Maybe it's time to break down and buy a new mouse.

                                        Going out of my way to kill duggies has proven to be a good use of time. No, they can't spawn ladders, but they have a reasonable number of cherry bomb drops, which is even better than an immediate ladder.

                                        "Boss" slimes are pretty important to hunt down, too, if I'm still using the rusty sword.

                                        I've now had a few L40s. Not 1 in 20 yet, but as with fishing, I'm pretty sure I can get there with practice.

                                        [EDIT3]
                                        [strike]From the Wiki:
                                        Anyone know the source of this? Is that from disassembled code? It does not seem to match up with my experience is the only thing. If you start with absolutely lousy luck (-0.1), on a level with 100 rocks, the first rock should have a 1% chance of spawning a ladder, the second rock, 2%, etc. This would mean even odds of getting a ladder by the 11th rock on this hypothetical level. More to the point, after the 4th rock, you are at 4%, effectively acting as if you had perfect star luck (0.1)

                                        I'm going to have to do some screenshots and count rocks to be sure, but my gut feel is I'm having to whack a whole lot more stones to get a ladder. And it also means for most levels daily luck is less important than whacking the first couple rocks. Which is not something the speedrunners believe, or they would not sleep through days waiting for good luck. And not remotely close to my experience -- I'm going through enough energy to take out at least 500 rocks, and even if there were no map-gen ladders at all, that should be enough to get me to L50.[/strike]


                                        ----

                                        Never mind. The second rock is not 2/100, it's 1/99. That would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 rocks for a ladder. That's probably close to what I'm seeing. And more significantly, crappy luck would be 1% for each rock, great luck would be 5%. Huge...
                                        [/EDIT3]

                                        [EDIT]
                                        I will say, though, that it seems that might be the case using cherry bombs. I'm frequently popping a ladder with just one. Only rarely is there a level that requires 3.
                                        [/EDIT]

                                        [EDIT2]
                                        I meant to ask about this. Do you use keyboard only? No mouse? Or are you bouncing from mouse to numpad that quickly?
                                        [/EDIT2]
                                         
                                          Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
                                        • ShneekeyTheLost

                                          ShneekeyTheLost Black Hole Surfer

                                          My general practice is as follows:

                                          * Avoid combat if possible, ESPECIALLY avoid combat with slimes and larvae. Slimes, regardless of level, tend to be some of the most dangerous enemies to encounter, and larvae will pupate when hit and not killed and turn into swarming insects which are even more dangerous.
                                          * The key is to descend. To this end, you need to cover ground and clear enough rocks. Explosives can help with this.
                                          * Bring food. Early game, Spring Onions are a good food source. Salmonberries are also excellent once they become available. Later on, Cheese is an excellent food source. The more food you have, the less you are constrained by endurance.
                                          * Don't worry about passing out from lack of endurance, you only loose a bit of gold, well worth if you hit your next elevator level. If you keep your cash on hand deliberately low, the cost can be quite minimal.
                                          * Upgrading your pick is important. You'll want a copper pickaxe around the time you hit level 40ish, and you'll want a steel pickaxe once you hit level 80ish.
                                          * Staircases are a sometimes tool. Use them sparingly. For example, to avoid a combat level or to hit an elevator level when low on resources or time.
                                          * Leave a chest next to the minecart at the top of the mines, where you can stash goodies. This lets you empty your inventory every five levels so you don't have to leave anything behind, even without bag upgrades.
                                           

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