Veraal, with a hard enough stone or some scrap metal, some wet sand, a fire and a power source I can make a crude drill. With better materials, I could make a better drill. That is me, a non-engineer adult human being of the 21st century using basic scientific principles and half-remembered techniques from documentaries. So why not the player character? Having the drill replace the pickaxe as the "do one thing well, scrape together disposable tools" device until you can upgrade the MM (which I am adamant about encouraging as a mechanic) addresses the flavor problem I've been outlining.
It's simple enough to justify! The Matter Manipulator's not designed to break things down, specifically. It does it, but it's by no means efficient at it. Pickaxes are darn easy to make, and if you're only using them for a while 'till you get into the more mechanized stuff, I can see it as a logical step towards something greater. The Anvil itself gets upgraded into a Molten Core type anvil, which seems to be efficient at matter conversions. The crafting table also eventually becomes robotically assisted. That complexity comes later. At that point, everything you just said becomes valid, but not 'till then. So there's plenty of reason as to why it would be there, and really, when it comes down to it, why would we be of the mind that we should exclude this? Some people simply enjoy the thought of building a simple farm, pulling out a simple pickaxe, and then making some simple pie from simple crops. A lot of people also rather NOT have such simplicity, and lo! The complex stuff does exist! It just comes later. As it is, we're getting more techno-type stuff being released in these last patches. Even now it's starting to look like we're going to be able to somewhat forgo mining entirely, and rely on pixels! I say leave it be, largely because- why not?
Posting again to address this, which I didn't see earlier. That's fairly nice that you can do that. Personally, I do not understand the mechanisms by which a drill would function with just a fire, stone, sand, and whatever else. It seems that the ship that one travels in is, also, by no means a repository of information at the start. This drill of yours- Is it convenient to have on your person? Is the energy source you are suggesting something that would make it unwieldly? What makes the concept of this crude drill somehow more viable than a simple stick-and-slab construct? Edit: It should be noted that there -ARE!- such short-skips already in place! I would very much support your concept of creating a crude drill as long as you could find a power source that would be convenient! I am of this opinion because of some armor that recently came out that lets you skip a few tiers. It's crafted from that matter you can sometimes find in Gltich temples. http://starbounder.org/Makeshift_Set
It would be very unweildy, heavy, and liable to snap if used for too long at a time. But I could do it with much more primitive training, knowledge, and technology than the player character could have. The point I keep trying to make is this: it can't be argued for or against with headcanons and "realism". We can justify anything. This issue cannot be about what we think makes sense because anything can make sense. We need to be talking about design. Just design. Can you answer the design criticisms without talking about what you feel is possible? Progression can be facilitated with other items already in the game. Setting consistency is better served by other items already in the game. Fighting the derivative is done better by using other items already in the game. What about all of that? It's not enough to say that it comes later because it doesn't help with those last two criticisms at all. It is the active harm in them.
I'm not speaking entirely from a realism standpoint, believe me! Starbound is a very fantastical game with many inconsistencies. I'm bringing up the technological aspects of the progression as a means, not of realism, but to give the player the idea that they've got very little to start off with. What you suggest with a drill could, yes, be very easily implemented by simply placing a fully functional drill into the storage box when the game starts, but the developers have instead opted to make it feel more "From the ground up" by doing by this more low-tech method. And it really does give a nice feel to be able to think that you went from such terribly unsuitable equipment, towards more awesome gear that could simply dissolve any obstructions in front of you. In short, Neither way makes paricular sense, realistically. The path that the devs have chosen is based on what feels better in their opinion, and I am more towards agreeing with them on that than not. it certainly -could- be changed on the basis of pickaxes being wholly redundant, but it's just not so romantic then.
It's not a mature solution? By modding the game, a player is identifying what he or she feels is a problem, or at least something that could be improved, and takes the steps necessary to fix it. Alternatively, we can beg the devs to do it for us as long as we want... is that a mature solution? If you're hungry, get up and go eat; don't wait for (or worse, demand) someone else to come feed you. Please identify the part of my post where I told anyone to shut up and mod. I certainly can't find it. This is an issue that people care enough about to code a fix for themselves; and at the time of posting this message, there have been 167 downloads from players who agree with the modder (it was in the twenties just a few days ago). I can't help but think that sends a stronger message to the devs than any conversation in the forums. "Hmm, it would seem a lot of people want this in game so badly, they're actually making it themselves. Maybe we go ahead and put it in the base game with the appropriate balancing." I can, however, cite game lore. Go make a new toon and thoroughly read EVERYTHING that pops up in the tutorial stages of the game - you will find snips about how your character narrowly escaped etc. etc. If you understood the situation your character is in when you start the game, you might understand why making and using a pickaxe makes sense for the first bit of the game. Progression via material grind is a pretty big part of the game... why should pickaxes be an exception? Everything they do is done better by the things you progress to (drills), that's how progression works. The first item does two things better than the pickaxe: it reaches farther and it looks awesome / sci-fi-y. This is why I agree that upgraded matter manipulators should be used for mining once the need for pickaxes is no longer a factor, regarding your specific character's situation. Derivative from... Terraria? It is. Do you feel that needs to be masked? Cuz I don't see anything wrong with it. It only threatens the immersion of the player in the setting if that player doesn't understand what the setting is. If you take a second to read the bits of lore that the devs established, via popping it up on your screen as soon as you enter the game world, you would understand that you don't have squat for resources, and you'd therefore understand the need to use the resources you have to make more resources that you need. Those newly crafted resources are still pretty shoddy, but they're better than nothing, and you can use them to make something even better, then better, then better, then "Hey! An Impervium Matter Manipulator! Hooray!". Progression does not threaten immersion. *snort-laugh* How 'bout now? Do I have your permission to post my input in this public forum?
There's input in a forum and there's just posting. Now you're providing input. I won't apologize for how I feel, but now we're having discourse and isn't that better than just talking passed each other? I'm not here to convince you to like me, my agenda is discussing Starbound. You say that the popups describe narrow escapes and low resources. That's all true. But how does it follow from that fact that we have to devolve to stone age tools and abandonning the resources we clearly do have? You're also right that progression doesn't threaten immersion. I am very into the progression aspect. That's what keeps players playing. What I'm advocating isn't abandonning that. What I'm advocating is to make it fit the setting. Progress with the visuals we expect and the tools we clearly already have. You also say that it's important that the mod exists and is downloaded because it shows that there is a demand for the change. I whole-heartedly agree with that. But we need threads like this to show the devs, who may not have taken notice of the mod, that there is open support of it. That it's not just a way to cheat the system or a meek fad but a legitimate complaint about the game they're letting us buy into testing. I believe there needs to be both prongs. The metaphor about eating is weak. Alpha testing isn't feeding yourself. It seems to me we agree on quite a lot. I'm just going one step farther and asking: why have pickaxes at all? Is being clearly part of a certain genre worth being openly derivative, and in my opinion pointlessly so?
Fair enough. I do invite you to re-read my initial post in this thread, however, as there's quite a lot more than "just posting". This time, try not to assume tone, which I suspect is what gave you the "shut up and mod" impression earlier... such is the bane of any form of communication other than face-to-face, so you've got the benefit of the doubt. (the tone I was shooting for was humor, btw, while still trying to be informative) To highlight the severity of the situation. Why have drills at all? This appears to be the only matter we're not seeing eye-to-eye. With all the attention pickaxes have been getting, it doesn't seem like anyone's focusing on the drills, which I feel are the true culprits: The pickaxe is a "Oh crap, this **** just got real. We gotta bite the bullet and git-r-done so we can get out of this mess, and back to our comfort zone (sci-fi tech)." The Matter Manipulator is sci-fi tech. The drill is modern tech. I have one in my closet. When I see it, I don't think "that is a DAMN fine piece of engineering, right there!", I think "if I put something in the forward end of it, that something will spin. " Why, then, in a sci-fi game, are we using drills - for end game content, no less? I mean, I could kind of see it if we beamed down with ZERO resources into a post-apocalyptic planet that was littered with pre-historic (aka,today's modern) technology, and we found a drill to use as our "git-r-done" solution... but outside of that, it doesn't make sense to me to be using a drill in this setting. We can fly a spacecraft faster than light; fuel it with a few hundred chunks of coal; float around by turning gravity off in a bubble around us; and use a Matter Manipulator to lift and move thousand-pound+ objects as though they're a feather... and our method of choice for pulling rocks out of the ground is pry it up with a spinning piece of metal (or diamond, which is another physics rant in-and-of-itself)?! Our characters are clearly not familiar with the term "Work smarter, not harder". So, if we're progressing from basically nothing, to sci-fi tech, don't you think it makes more sense to make a pick out of desperation, then make a matter manipulator when you have the option? Drills shouldn't even be part of the equation.
I registered to post something about how I was unsatisfied with the mining in Starbound, and this thread seems to fit the bill. My main suggestion for this game would be for a departure from the pickaxin' all day and night mechanic we've all become familiar with. Perhaps you could scrap the upgrading the pickaxe tree with different ores and immediately switch to more exotic options.
I think there's a fun goofy middle ground it doesnt seem like anyone's considered here: Tech out the pickaxe. You already have one on hand, instead of wasting the materials in building a new machine, why not preserve an inventory slot by welding the matter manipulator, some sort of laser, somethign like that etc. directly into the pickaxe to make some unholy reverse-steampunk style thing, with a head that's a case protecting a more high-tech digging tool that is itself sturdy enough to be used directly as a pickaxe. A laser pickaxe would make sense gameplay-wise; if something is out of reach the alt-fire can dig at things far away with a slower, more deliberate, and more focused pace and range. The only hitch here is triggering the alt-fire with something other than right-click which isn't hard. Sorry if some of this seems jumbled or nonsequitor; communication isn't always my strong suit.
arrrrrgh, there's a million and one topic about this already, stop it! AND i am opposite of making the MM a digging tool, i agree to make others technological mining tools, but not the MM. (i just wish it picked up furniture in 1 or 2 hits)
I tend to agree with the tone of the OP and not just with the matter manipulator but also your starting weapon. Being a space traveler (even given the setting of this game and barely escaping Earth's destruction), it seems weird running around with a pickaxe and a sword and using a bow and arrow. At the very beginning of the game I suppose it's fine as you build yourself back up.. but we need to be given a futuristic gun pronto in my opinion. Obviously it has to be weak otherwise the enemies we encounter will just be wrecked before being able to pose a threat but like others have already said, it feels a bit too terraria like in that way from the get-go.
I never actually thought about how out-of-place the weapon is. You're right, it doesn't make sense to find a sword in the storage bay of a spacecraft ...unless you're Glitch. Maybe add a lamp or something that could be used as a blunt weapon, but is clearly not *intended* to be a blunt weapon. "I need something to fend off the local wildlife... Hey, that'll work!"
Oh, come on. Since when have player care-packages ever followed logic? Other than, I don't know- A war-battlefield game in which weapons are everywhere, all of those kinds of start-up-items are usually placed in a nice bag of convenience tied neatly with a bow of coincidence. Jeebus, the glitch are so weird. ABSURDITY RULE, You cannot fight it!
So... It's okay cuz... everyone's doin' it? Dang, wish I knew that excuse when I was a kid! But in all seriousness, I understand that there needs to be a balance between realism and "here are the tools you need to play the game", That said, when realism is a viable option without sacrificing gameplay, that should be the route the game takes, don't you agree? *excepting situations that are DELIBERATELY tacky, like the penguins flying a saucer. *eye roll* There's no need for a sword, even in a "care package". (again, unless you're glitch)
MY idea here http://community.playstarbound.com/...modifiable-matter-manipulator-and-more.51957/ about a modification table could solve this by simply letting you upgrade the thing over time
(Wow, this thread moved fast while I was away) I don't think I've seen anyone opposed to a path of upgrading the matter manipulator - in fact, everyone thinks that's a great idea. What we're trying to hash out is how to bridge the apparent gap between starting with nothing but the basic manipulator and being able to make upgrades for it. I and others (quite independently) have proposed a rapid progression through increasingly complex extraction techs. Picks to drills to lasers to the MM. As for Anerin's talk about headcanon: my image of the story behind the game may not be important, but the developers' headcanon certainly matters. That's what's going to inform the design, and what I've been trying to do is infer this narrative based on the gameplay elements, lore and whatnot. (and the time-honoured technique of just making stuff up when things don't quite fit - it's Starbound midrash).
I Like my mod table idea though because you get to keep the one, and just add and swap out parts to make it better over time. You start with the same manipulator you do now but can almost right away start improving on it with some copper wires and some glass lenses.
