Kickstarter, Alphafunding, Pre-orders, etc

This is why everyone wonders why people keep putting out these poor games, or movies, etc... Its because people pay for these things without thinking. They don't care because they don't even realize when they have been burned. It is kinda sad that it is that way, but "One is born everyday", and they can keep on doing questionable things, because someone is going to buy it.. Heck now people are supporting these things before they are even produced...

But this is despite the point.. there again.. as I said earlier there is no reason to ask for money from customers..

I thought I would re quote this.. since it is the point.. if your in your moms basement and you are working on something then sure, I guess bug as many people as you want, but if you really want to run a professional business then this is not something you want to do.. Cause there is no good way to spin this, other then your desperate for money and don't want to work for it until after you get paid.

Also note if you have the skills to make a whole game from scratch then there are many other places to use those skills. Sure it means you would have to work on your game part time, other then full time. But if it is something you want to do, and/or enjoy doing then there ya go, if you spend your money on game related things, other then trying to guess what the "Next big game" is going to be

It's not evil, and its what every other industry does.. sounds like rationalization. Some new game is coming out, and you (not you specifically.. just people who are generally fit this description) are so excited that a new game is coming out, and that it *Might* be something that is cool, that you just want to throw money at it. I get it.. believe me, I usually get excited about these things too, but this is just too much. Calm down think about it.. and save your money.. Maybe if more people did this other then "spend their paper route money on risky ventures" then maybe you would realize better ways of spending your money.

Yea I think they are fine from Terraria, and can move on through this whole ... And as the game alpha goes (Going back to minecraft), when he first started he did this.. Offered the game for cheap and then just ran his Alpha.

 

Kickstarter is great for those with no $$ but a burning desire to get out a product. In the case of Starbound, I don't think they need the $$. Now if there was an early beta access pre-order, THAT I WOULD PAY FOR!

 

I have shied away from Kickstarter since they acidentally cancelled a project I had huge interest in and didn't even bother to apologize after they realized they made a mistake. I'd rather just send my money to the company directly and not get any of that "investor goodies" this time around.

That is of course if they ask for money pre-release, which is not likely.

 

I don't agree that they do it without thinking. As a whole the people that back a project; back it because it interests them on some level. I personally have backed projects just to help out. Your assuming that if a project doesn't go in the favor of everyone backing it that they will get upset. The opposite is true in many cases. The people backing a project on kickstarter or otherwise hope the project goes their way of course, but in the end they choose to take the risk. So yes, there are always some who will, but no more so than those say... in this budding community that are going to get upset when they buy Starbound. The only real difference is in a kickstarter you paid earlier. My opinion of course.

As for "people putting out poor games" etc.., You see, just because you find a game to be poor doesn't mean the people that put some money down to see it made think it's poor. I personally find the Call of Duty Series to be poor. Yet there are millions of other people out there that apparently feel otherwise. I can tell them I find the franchise to be lacking, but I have no right to tell them their favorite game sucks, it just makes me a prick, but otherwise accomplishes nothing. Others might find Starbound to be poor based on the outdated pixel art style. Doesn't make them right, just opinionated. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it's bad or wrong...just that it's not for you. Think about your favorite music or movie, how many people hate them.

Unfortunately personal opinion and right get confused a lot on the net.

I will agree to agree that this project does not likely require a fundraising effort. I would still drop a couple bucks to get the chance to play it as it's being built though.

O.

 

Just look at how many people are saying hey lets pay money even now. There will always be people who figure they can throw money at a problem and boom it is fixed, or that it will work out. But it is this reason why later these same people have no money (No not just because of a kickstarter) but because they are so eager to give away their money on things on these lines that the other things just get pushed back. I mean look how many people out there are having problems with money, and complaining that they are the 99% then they go off and spend what money they do have on something they had no real reason to be spent on. Its just a vicious cycle, that will continue on from now to the end of time, because people just don't see it most the time.

Ah you are thinking I am judging poor from my view of what is good or bad.. I understand it is easy to think that because it is then easier to say that I am going off my opinion and that games are bad. I am talking about the "Quality" of the work. The amount of time the people update, the amount of game content there is, the quality of that game.. yes, but that is based on a general "judgement" not mine. I am not saying that no-one enjoys it out there, there is always at least one that is like "heeey I liked that game.". heh. But just because there are a few that do like does not mean that the "Quality" is there. And when it comes to games like Call of Duty, or those big name games like that... Let me ask did they ask for some kind of Starter Help fee? No, they get your money through DLC's true enough (Discussed below) but they even knew other ways of getting money without falling down to ask their own customers for help.

Just look at all the 0-Day DLC.. It might be before your time (Didn't check) but these use to be called patches. When they realized they could make money on it, everything became DLC and they took a good idea and went crazy with it. But it doesn't matter, because as I said people will pay for just about anything, because "They must have it".. could you imagine if Terraria's content updates were DLC and you had to pay an extra 20 dollars for each one (I know that is more then it would of prob been, but its just an example)... People would of still bought them, and gone along with it.

Oh this I agree with ya, but it happens so much when someone who does hear something right, they just assume its wrong, because they disagree, and usually not even for a good reason.

 

I'm sorry but I was acquiring a bit of a headache trying to parse your posts TheRev, so please follow with me here:

-Thinking others are a sucker for taking a chance, even when it is at as small a risk as one might take on a store bought sandwich.

-Equating the widening gap of income inequality to poor spending habits and insinuating crowd-sourcing is a poor spending habit.

-Positioning yourself as a judge of good quality without demonstrating that in your own writing or presenting any credentials to evaluate the merits of.

-Confusing currently marketed DLC and content patches with the bug fix patches of the past.

I don't even know where to begin really or if I should bother starting, since I am feeling insulted by the political slandering alone - for anyone interested in that topic, this video is very enlightening: TED Talk - How Economic Inequality Harms Societies . Anything I say, heck, I may have said too much even bothering condensing your arguments down so you can view them more clearly, could very likely just be interpreted as snide.

So how about this, I know of this really nice roundtable talk with four Indie Developers that you can see for free in Episode 0 of PC Gamer Digital on Steam. This goes for anyone interested in this topic really, watch that series of videos then lets hear your thoughts.

 

kickstarter would work but they probably don't need it.

 

I can't recall where, but I have heard that Chucklefish will not be using any sort of kickstarter project for this game, nor will they ask for money to push the development along.
Pretty sure that was said in IRC by a member of the Dev team.

So, if it's been said before, I'm just reiterating it - No kickstarter-esque project for Starbound.

Whether the argument is about SHOULD it be used, it's not really the decision of the audience or the customers - Some people would love the idea of free goodies that come with helping to fund the game whereas others simply cannot care for them and just want the game; the decision is the Devs and by enforcing "free goodie" investment ideas, it means more work for them overall.

 

Don't forget there is also IndieGoGo.com & 8BitFunding.com

 

Its not completely beyond the pale though, found this in Developer Q&A (IRC Logs) [FAQ section of the forum] - http://pastebin.com/e0TGyN0P

I wasn't meaning to just solely focus on Kickstarter with this thread but take a look at all possible options that Indie Devs have played around with that are only more recently garnering attention. I mean, Dwarf Fortress has been around a very long time with its donation model, its a kind of alpha funding / kickstarter / pre-order "demo" right there.

Please, seriously check out that Indie Dev round table, they go into the topic in ways I would never have thought of as a end (or on the way through the process of development) user.

 

Ah yes you make a very good point that I had forgotten about. Donations for in-released-game additions (NPCs etc).

I personally don't see that as a kickstarter type project or indiegogo or any of the actual projects that will only run if a donation limit is reached.

Starbound is going to go ahead regardless of the number of donations, although I'm sure they will get plenty, and if anything those donations would act as a bonus to improving the game; rather than being the money required to start the game or put all the basic features in.

With games like Dwarf Fortress, while it relies on the Donation method it again isn't a case of "We need the money or we will not function" (at least to my knowledge, anyway).

What's this Indie Dev round table you speak of?

 

I think Kickstarter is a great, if poorly named, tool. But it is important to remember that it is just that; a tool. I think the name almost suggests that Kickstarter is step 1. What needs to be done first is to fully flesh out your idea. That means knowing what you want to do, the phases of development you expect, the people who are going to help you accomplish that, etc. Basically a realistic timeline of attainable goals. From there, you can start fundraising, because now you can tell people what you need the money for, and I think thats vitally important. "I need $$$ to make game" is too vague, and Im not a fan.

However I think another point is that its become the de facto standard for games on Kickstarter to offer the full game on release for some donation (10-15 usually). The problem is that locks you in. You cant go higher or lower, people will cry bloody murder. I think with a game like Starbound, because they are still working out so many details big and small, they would be hesitant to slap a price on it at this stage.

And yes of course Im willing to bet Tiy can somewhat comfortably fund the project.

 

No need to start a Minecraft bitch fest.

 

And when I think of something like FTL, that is also the case, they have a compelling pitch because they have something that is currently functioning. Interestingly enough, that is something that is brought up in the following...

Its a series of videos on their free episode there, I enjoyed listening to them, found them informative and entertaining. Perhaps a link of sort might help, its not to hard to find on one's own though: http://store.steampowered.com/app/92500

And let me be clear(-er?), I am not saying Chucklefish is broke and needs our money or this project is doomed and that they must use this method or another, that would be all kinds of presumptuous and arrogant on my part and I don't want any of that. I just wanted to discuss the topic of Indie Development funding that involves us, as highlighted in that IRC quote, it very much came across to me as an ongoing discussion, so I wanted to hear from others about it.

I personally would hope there is something that allows earlier access or just to help out at a discount of whatever the regular price may be, I have found that model to be accommodating of my desire to see the journey from idea to implementation and the amount of disposable income I have available for entertainment. Other games have been above the $10-15 price point before, at around $20 to be exact, Xenonauts and Natural Selection 2 come to mind and those are very much something you can play with right now. Those price points I am referring to are after discount and currency exchange (but before the credit card interest hits), I do think a fair point is made that once on with something like Kickstarter, that level of donation that receives the game becomes to an extent the discounted pre-order price, so I would expect that the actual price would be something in the neighbourhood of twice that - I am basing that off of what I saw with Mount & Blade or Minecraft, where their price point came up to after they put out their end of the development cycle version ... which in the case of Mount & Blade has seen many discounts since, coming back down to the price of the early adopter or even less years later.

That said, I have also had less than desirable situations in the past with these kinds of ventures, Survivors of Ragnarok on Desura and Nuka Cola Break web series on IndieGoGo come to mind, but those journey's aren't over yet either and don't reflect something wrong with the services they were offered on, as I have had lots of other good experiences at those places as well, like Project Zomboid, Xenonauts, and some mods on Desura. I think you are correct though, I would be hesitant to go above $15 again for Kickstarter because of my experience with IndieGoGO / Nuka Cola Break (so far - haven't received the perk I was promised, I hope that can be fixed, fired off some emails and comments but no response yet), but I wasn't hesitant to go above that on Desura or Steam. Take that for what you will, some methods and venues I trust more than others and what I am willing to pay there reflects that - and if it involves PayPal thanks to how that dealt with Project Zomboid, Minecraft, and others ... I would just give it a pass all together. I think some of these facilitators like Desura certainly have earned some respect in the freedom and support they give Indie Devs by comparison.

 

Well what he said is sad but some extend true. Minecraft is not known for having amazing coding, don't get me wrong it's still a great game.

 

Unfortunately it was easier to build on top of what was already there then to rewrite the entire thing in a different programming language. Even if you did, it would be nearly impossible to make it exactly the same...

 

There is much more risk of financially supporting a game, and buying a sandwich, but someone could be considered a "Sucker" if they are taken advantage of for a bad purchase on purpose, not the risk itself.

Wow.. I was using it to show a "Category" of people. We are not necessarily talking about the rich, we are talking about the people who don't have a lot of excess to spend, it is just easier to specify the group other then specifics. Everything beyond that point is just what you insinuated.. I can't help what you assume, only clarify what I mean. With no proof of anything done I *do* consider it just an idea with no real value, at least wait until there is an alpha or something to show that the people are willing to put time into it. Anytime before that I do think just giving away money for such a project *Is* a bad spending habit.

Ya know if I asked you what color the sky is, and you told me blue.. I would not ask you for your credentials. There are somethings that are so logically correct that they do not need the support credentials. The only thing we can use to judge the present is our history, if you look at what games have been around through our history. You can see the differences, and sure some of the changes have not been bad, but a lot of the games in the industry has been taking "Short-cuts" and this isn't a judgement of whats there, but an observation.

No... the example I gave was for content, the patches I was specifically talking about were content. But that's alright, this is kinda off topic anyway so it really isn't a big deal.

Ya kinda went off the rails here.. I am not going to discuss my political standing on a Starbound forum, I am sorry. I only mentioned them as a recognizable group, and obviously you got the reference of who I was talking about so I think of it as successful.

I truly wish the best for any indie gamer, I think if anyone is willing to put their time into a game, and makes something, that is really something.

Finally let me be clear because everything has seemed to get jumbled throughout this conversation.

The price for working on designing a game, is cheaper now then it has ever been. This does not mean everything you *want* to use is free, but a lot can be done with cheap/free software if your willing to put the time into it. If the developer is not willing to put money and time into it themselves, then to be honest it most likely will not work out, because making a full game is not easy.

Finally, if a designer is not willing to show something other then an idea for your money then it might not be a good idea to put your money in for it. Everyone has "Cool Ideas", being in the modding community for a while you see it a lot. The difference you look for is when people have something to show with those ideas. It shows they are willing to put the time and effort to reach those goals, other then just letting it go. I can't tell you how many times I have seen that happen, good ideas that no one is willing to spend the time into, that yes.. Maybe I am a bit Jaded , but I am telling you out of 100 ideas you might see 10 of them actually get made.

Edit:

Very good point, but it depends on what you are doing. If you are changing something so fundamental that everything is going to needed to be worked on anyway.. Then it might be a good time to start re-writing! (Note: This would be an extreme amount of work.. I fully agree with ya there)

But about it not being exactly the same.. That is a good thing! Hopefully it won't be the same, because it is better!

 

Only time I ever paid money for a not-yet-finished game was with Minecraft. That was money well-spent, IMO, so I wouldn't mind doing it again for Starbound. Seeing as Minecraft and Terraria are the most exciting games I've played this past year, I'm waiting eagerly for this game's release. With that said, I agree it can sometimes be bad for a game's overall image if it's made available too soon.