How to: Evil Corporate Overlords

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Roskii Heiral, Dec 23, 2016.

  1. Roskii Heiral

    Roskii Heiral Heliosphere

    One thing that bothers me about the game is how easy it is to completely ignore Jojamart. They are overpriced, charge 5k for a membership, thier flagship product is garbage, etc.

    I feel as though it would be much more compelling to make them a greater temptation to the player. While these ideas may seem odd at first, I think if you stick around for all my reasons you'll agree it would make Joja a more compelling villain.

    Possible Changes:

    -Joja is ALWAYS cheaper. Make it more of a sacrifice for the player to side with local businesses. It is implied in the story that this is the case anyway.

    -Joja Cola restores a lot of energy. Its a cheap, effective energy boost. You could put a crash debuff at the end or something (similar to the buzzed debuff) since it probably isn't the most healthy drink in the world.

    -Tiers of consequences based on how much you spend at Joja. Instead of a 5grand ticket that blows up the community center. Make it to where if you spend that money at Joja on products (seeds, cola, furniture, etc) at a certain point it takes over the town. Heck, Pierre could even have to shut his doors at a certain point. Have Harvey move in to a "5 minute clinic" situation at the Mart. You could have Lewis fall slowly deeper into Joja's pockets for more power.

    -Once the competition is gone, the prices go up. As one final slap in the face, when you've given the town to Joja, they jack up their prices and laugh all the way to the bank. Morris could supplant Lewis. The town economy slumps. Everyone gets Shane-ified. They can start sending the player low offers for their land, since its now located next to slums.

    The story as it is seems heavy handed against Joja Mart to the extent that its laughable to side with them. I feel as though adding these changes would make the player understand more how these companies operate and get the point accross better.

    If you hung around til the end of my post, thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing what you think!
     
    • GreenWombat

      GreenWombat Cosmic Narwhal

      I like some of the ideas. Joja always being cheaper for example I think is great idea along with switching the membership to spending that much at Joja instead of needing to pay it upfront to get the benefit. Maybe after spending so much at Joja you receive and offer in the mail for a customer loyalty membership (free since you bought products to earn the opportunity) and accepting that is what sets you on the Joja path. However I think things like running Pierre out of business and Joja completely taking over the town is going a bit far in my opinion. The prices going up at Joja afterwards especially, while somewhat realistic, would be a bad idea as you are basically saying to the player congrats you did all that work now we are going to punish you for it.

      Plus I actually disagree that it feels all that one sided as both have their pros and cons. Sure Joja has the 5000g member fee (and Morris is a jerk) but they also provide jobs for Shane and Sam and more affordable prices for people like Pam and Jodi. On the other side you have Pierre who is the nicer option so to speak of the two but in all fairness is a bit of a money obsessed jerk himself at times (not so much intentionally as it is more of a character flaw). Plus the community center path is the harder and more restrictive of the two since it requires specific items instead of just money.

      So in the end you basically have two sides both of which are flawed except one is more difficult but slightly better morally while the other is easier but a bit shady. All in all it kind of evens out in my opinion I just think a couple of those changes (as I mentioned at the top of this post) would be nice touches to make it work a little better.
       
      • Surenu

        Surenu The End of Time

        I think JoJa is more expensive in-game because they want you to buy produce, not seeds because seeds allow you to grow your own stuff. We don't actually get to buy that much food from them (correct me if I'm wrong, I just don't go there), but I assume that these individually sealed pancakes must be cheap enough, cheaper than homemade pancakes.

        Your idea is solid though, and yes, JoJa needs more exposition as the greedy corporate drones they're supposed to be.
         
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        • Xamerzan

          Xamerzan Cosmic Narwhal

          Here's what I think... some of the greatest villains are the ones who unredeemingly think they are the good guys (unredeemingly in the sense that they're set in their ways and will not change), and in some cases, be HIGHLY manipulative towards everyone around them. I'd say that Joja already has the manipulation part taken care of, so why not make them think they're doing good when in reality it's just causing more hurt? I'd probably have more thoughts on this subject, but it'll have to wait for now.
           
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          • gummywyrms

            gummywyrms Pangalactic Porcupine

            I like the idea generally, but I would change a bit with one of your points...

            I would change a bit with how this goes, but I feel like it would add a nice "bad end", like when you make the wrong choice in some HM games - allowing your dog to attack the mayor or killing the town by adding a level 100 poisonous mushroom to the Harvest Festival stew.

            Joja buys out more and more of the shops, the town becomes more industrialized and the nature is ruined - for instance, the water changes color and at some point the fish are basically dead, so you almost always catch trash, and the foraging items can no longer grow and are replaced with bits of trash, at the very end you can't grow any more plants or take care of any animals because the pollution is so bad that everything dies. Once you've reached the point of total Joja-fication, you are forced to quit the game, as all of your sources of income are gone. However, you do get one last cutscene (and achievement), in which you see Joja buying out the rest of the town for cheap to build more factories, and the remaining residents can do nothing but take the money and hope they'll be able to survive in the city. You go back with them, to the boring job you tried to escape from, and the last thing you see is the construction crew coming to your farm and destroying everything, including your grandfather's shrine.

            As this happens, though, you can reverse the Joja-fication by supporting local businesses and such, and maybe by getting help from the Wizard to call the Junimo, for instance.

            Edit: I imagine this would go better with a completely new game, though, honestly. Seems like too much work to add a SDV update.
             
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            • ravenben

              ravenben Void-Bound Voyager

              I think we could use better storyline for sure. However, too many twists and changes wouldnt be very good. I see that ConcernedApe has keep the game balanced in this major story and we arguably get all the same things even though it comes with different ways. I like the idea of making Joja a more compelling option and the idea like they are doing good things, but they do harm others but not that much. Its like affecting the world to some degree but not to truly make it unrecognizable. Keep Stardew Valley as Stardew Valley.
               
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              • Roskii Heiral

                Roskii Heiral Heliosphere

                That's the funny thing about this game, it wants to ride the fence and make a statement at the same time.

                The entire beginning of the game is basically a condemnation of this evil corporate entity named Joja that exists to steal the souls from their employees and work them til they literally die at their cubicle. This is further reinforced by cutscenes where every time that Morris shows up he twirls his mustache and makes someone miserable.

                Shane is another Joja employee and seems to be miserable because of it (which fits with the tone set in the beginning).

                However, none of this translates into the game at all. Your farmer can go back and side with them (for no reason) and it actually makes the game easier and more free.

                I've seen the defense for this being that it establishes "balance" by allowing the player to do whatever they want and achieve a similar outcome. In a single player game, there's no need for any of this sort of "balancing."

                If we need to include an option for giving a company or government money and acheiving the various CC upgrades, it could just as easily be donated to Lewis and accomplish the same result.

                The thing about games is that usually when you establish a villain, it usually works best to allow the player to destroy that villain. In the rare circumstances where players are allowed to side with villains, it usually works best to have consequences. This gives the player that satisfaction and sense of agency.

                If you want Joja to be a balanced alternative with no consequences, then you may want to change the beginning of the game and not have them portrayed as the "bad guys."
                 
                • GreenWombat

                  GreenWombat Cosmic Narwhal

                  I never saw it as the game trying to make a statement, at least not the statement most would assume. To me the strength of CA's writing is that he places one thing in front of you but if you look deeper you find the real message.

                  Here's this peaceful, perfect, and happy town.... everyone is flawed
                  Joja corporation is soul sucking.... Pierre's a greedy jerk as well
                  The community center can be repaired to bring happiness to the town.... repair it and most people still don't use it
                  Robin has the classic family of mother and father with a daughter and son.... except Demetrius is actually her second husband and is neglectful of her son from her previous marriage

                  To me the real statement of the game is the old addages of don't judge a book by it's cover and nothing is perfect. Its setting up Joja as the villian wasn't a mistake, it did it to toy with the viewer so it could pull the rug out from under you later. CA gives you that easy and obvious answer knowing that most people will happily take the bait and then as you dig deeper you realize the easy and obvious answer isn't actually true at least not entirely. Joja being evil is a red herring, it sets up the game as the generic happy farming sim story so that that CA can subvert it as you get deeper.
                   
                  • Roskii Heiral

                    Roskii Heiral Heliosphere

                    While its true that everyone is flawed, If you watched the beginning of the game its very clearly set up that Joja is bad. The rotting corpse sitting a few seats away from you is a fairly large clue.

                    Could I ask how Pierre being a jerk makes them less evil? Since that is your only counter statement specifically aimed at Joja, I seem them as pretty mutually exclusive. There is never a subversion of Joja being evil, there's never a "pulling the rug out from under you" moment where you realize they are good. I would like to hear more about where you got these impressions, because I'm not seeing them anywhere.

                    Don't get me wrong, there are alot of great stories in stardew valley, but the redemption of the soul stealing corporation is not one of them (barring a few fan fictions).
                     
                    • GreenWombat

                      GreenWombat Cosmic Narwhal

                      Again, red herring. Yes Joja is portrayed as bad in the intro, that's the point. You can't pull the rug out from under people if they aren't already standing on the proverbial rug to start with so the beginning of the game sets itself up as the generic farming game story because it's a good disguise and gets people already on the side of being against Joja. It intentionally shows a perspective that paints Joja in a bad light but you have to remember just that, it's a perspective. It's not the full picture just one view of it. Joja looks worse because you are being shown it from the position of someone who hates their job. And subverting doesn't mean polar opposite. The world isn't that black and white. There isn't just good and evil there are countless varients inbetween. The point isn't to say that Joja is actually good, the point is that they aren't all bad just like the residents of Pelican town aren't all good. Using Pierre as an example since you asked specifically about that example. I didn't list him because it makes Joja look better, I listed him because he is generally viewed as the counterpart to them. The big corporate super store vs the mom and pop shop. But while that dynamic is usually portrayed as the mom and pop business being this happy little wonder of the community being driven out by the evil corporation the reality in the game is that Pierre is far from fitting that mold. He's a workaholic, he's greedy, and while he isn't a bad person he isn't the nice little guy that the dynamic usually focuses on. Meanwhile Joja isnt the evil corporation of the dynamic either, if you really get down to it Joja is never actually that antagonistic (Morris is a jerk but he isn't the company he just works for them).

                      I think part of where you are going wrong is you are looking for a villain when there isn't one. Joja is never an actual villain. They aren't trying to destroy the town they aren't even trying to harm the town. They are simply providing their service and happen to be looking to buy some currently unused land (unused by reason of disuse at that, the town is responsible for the community center falling apart not Joja). The only actual antagonism from Joja themselves is solely from the competition side of things in that they aren't the only ones in town trying to provide a single type of service which isn't evil it's just an aspect of how running a business tends to go. That's where the subversion lies. The game plays on the corporate vs mom and pop dynamic and sets it up as though it's going to just go with that but then in reality Joja is actually just cold and corporate not actually evil.

                      Also there is no rotting corpse

                      During the scroll we see a purple haired woman, brown haired guy with glasses, lady with headband, empty desk, cowboy hat guy, balding black guy, you, and a blond lady in that order.
                       
                      • Eikos

                        Eikos Scruffy Nerf-Herder

                        How about some more subtle changes. Like siding with JoJa or buying their merchandise will be much cheaper and more convenient, but at the cost of drastically lower chances of quality crops, as if the environment itself gets degraded a bit. Crab pots catch more trash than usual. Foraged goods are rarely above silver quality. Fishing yields lower quality fish, and rare fish become rarer. There could be more stormy days as well.

                        Also, the Secret Woods gets closed off or doesn't respawn hardwood.
                         
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                        • Roskii Heiral

                          Roskii Heiral Heliosphere

                          it helps if you use a video made after 1.1

                          there is a corpse

                           
                          • GreenWombat

                            GreenWombat Cosmic Narwhal

                            Odd. I play on 1.1 and I've never once had the camera pan over that far.
                             
                            • Roskii Heiral

                              Roskii Heiral Heliosphere

                              The person that hates their job is known in story terms as the protagonist, the job they hate is known as the antagonist. The story never presents any other framework for the story, nor does it do anything to change that position. I would be extremely happy to see something clever done where the player finds out that their perception of Joja is wrong and sees them in a new light, but that is not the structure of the story we are given.

                              When you use terms like red herring and subversion to counter a claim, its best to provide some evidence where we see those writing techniques being used. Is there a time when Joja's antagonism toward the farmer distracts from another hidden antagonist? If not, then it isn't a red herring. Is there a scene where we learn a new truth about Joja that paints them in a new light? If not, its not subversion.

                              You seem to be under the impression that all villains believe that they are doing evil and are acting in a manner that they perceive to be evil.

                              Have you ever seen a movie where the villain felt as though he was bringing order?

                              Have you ever seen a movie where a villain was just a hired mercenary doing a job?

                              Have you ever seen a villain that was completely unaware that they were doing any harm at all or were even unaware completely of the protagonist's existence?

                              Have you ever seen a movie where the main antagonist was completely devoid of higher thinking (animals/disasters)?

                              The motives and actions of the antagonist is irrelevant to the structure of the story. The protagonist's views and motives are what ultimately makes that distinction. Joja's cold and corporate behavior is pitted directly against the altruistic and benevolent behavior of the Juminos in a major gameplay decision.

                              Ultimately, however, whether or not Joja is a villain is not the point of my thread. Whether or not they are a well written villain is also not the point of the thread. My ultimate goal was to suggest methods that CA could use to make them better villains (if that is something he is interested in).

                              I really hope that this post doesn't seem rude, I have a habit of being very direct in a way that many people find jarring. I appreciated your points and, while I disagree with many of them, am glad you came to contribute to the thread!
                               
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                              • Surenu

                                Surenu The End of Time

                                It goes even further than that.

                                • Lenin and Stalin really believed what they did was for the good of the entire world.
                                • Hitler saw what he believed to be genuine evil in other races.
                                • Pinochet believed communists to be so much a threat that throwing them out of helicopters seemed like the least evil option.
                                And so on. Evil for the sake of evil is a thing of fairy tales. Hell, I never understood why Sauron did the things he did.

                                Long story short, if we want JoJa to be evil, we need them to do evil things for good reasons. Or at least reasons JoJa perceives as good ones before I get accused of being a Hitler symphathizer :D I think we need to see corportate mismanagement and saving measures in effect.
                                 
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                                • Scritchowl

                                  Scritchowl Big Damn Hero

                                  If you wanted to make joja more appealing to the character make a change in the game on what paths you go down vs what rewards you get

                                  Like right now the standard end game is you do favors for the wizard and get access to junimos as a work force. This would be great as a restoring the community center reward as you took the time for the junimos and made the happy.

                                  Now as a suggestion make joja more appealing by introducing temp labor. Where you are hiring the town deadbeats to auto pilot your barns. This labor could be provided by linus as joja secures resource rights to the hills and has him arrested for trespassing. Now he is in work release and is now property of joja. Also gives you a joja branding bonus. Now if you deliver your products to the joja warehouse you get an additional 20% gold bonus added to my your products.

                                  The new joja bonuses are made to appear bleak but valuable. To make it seem as you have made a faustian bargain. Heck you could introduce joja contracts were you agree to produce a certain amount of goods each season or else you get penalties for not showing the joja work ethic. Maybe even have the offer to endorse your farm once your net worth is high enough and try to buy the rights to it.
                                   
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                                  • GreenWombat

                                    GreenWombat Cosmic Narwhal

                                    First off Joja isn't the antagonist because you hate your job. You hating working for them is nothing more than motivation for why you moved to the farm. That aspect of the story has no other point or meaning whatsoever. If that makes them the antagonist then they are the flimsiest antagonist in the history of storytelling because their antagonism is defeated by you quitting before the opening cutscene even finishes. The idea you are referring to starts and ends in that cutscene and the fact that the point isn't even brought up at any other time in the game goes to show how much it matters.

                                    Second red herring doesn't strictly mean pretending to show a villain to hide the real villain. That is a use of the idea but it isn't the only use. A red herring in reality is anything used to mislead or distract. In this case the depiction is there to mislead the player into viewing them as the villain when in reality there is no actual villain. If you want to get really deep in a way it's showing the fact that there is nothing standing between the farmer and his/her happiness other than his/her own willingness and opportunity.

                                    And no there doesn't need to be a scene bluntly painting them in a new light to show this. That isn't the only way to portray an idea. There's an old concept in music that there are two aspects to music, the notes and the rests. Sound and silence. Writing is much the same, it's not always about what is directly shown but also what isn't. Actions speak louder than words or in this case lack of actions. Say for example you have a character that everyone is always claiming is into comic books, but at no point in the story does he ever actually read comics or show any interest in comics. The story may not directly say that the others claims are false but the lack of corroboration does and raises questions for the reader about why the others are misrepresenting who he is. The fact is that at no point during the story does Joja do anything antagonistic towards the town or the farmer (Morris does but again Morris is an employee of Joja but he is not Joja themselves). You claim that you hating your job makes them an antagonist but they never forced you into that job, you chose to work there and you chose to leave and clearly they didn't stop you.

                                    Also no I am not under the impression that a villain has to think they are doing evil. Some of the best villains in story telling generally don't which is part of what makes them so interesting. But they do have to be doing something actually antagonistic which as mentioned above Joja doesn't.

                                    And yes whether or not Joja is a villain is a major point because by your own words you are offering ideas of how to "make them better villains." The fact that they aren't villains completely nullifies the very point of making them better ones. Making them a better villain requires them to be a villain to start with, you can't be a better version of something you aren't already. That very concept would be like offering ideas to J.K. Rowling on how to make Dudley a better wizard, except he isn't a wizard so you can't make him a better version of something he isn't.
                                     
                                    • Scritchowl

                                      Scritchowl Big Damn Hero

                                      Joja is a evil company. They are a parody of enron, walmart, pfizer and trump inc.

                                      joja bleu actually makes you turn blue. The cause landslides and natural disasters. Creates a souless workplaces. Purposely attempts to undermine and destroy competition. Joja cola is toxic enough to erode your throat. They release a drug that disolves bone 1 in 500 patients
                                       
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                                      • Roskii Heiral

                                        Roskii Heiral Heliosphere

                                        Thanks, yes, lets get this thread back on the rails. I like the contract ideas, they could replace the quest board in the town square after you hit a certain level of depth with Joja.

                                        Lol, yes, and their toxic waste is why abigail's hair is permanently purple xD

                                        Yes, giving a villain a solid motivation and personality is what makes them interesting in the first place. Without this development you end up with flat, two-dimensional characters.
                                         
                                        • Roskii Heiral

                                          Roskii Heiral Heliosphere

                                          Since I took the time to type it out and it relates to this suggestion, I thought I'd link this here:

                                          Understanding Antagonists

                                          It reminded me of this thread and hope it helps everyone =d
                                           

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