How ''magic'' would fit

Discussion in 'Mechanics' started by DevilForce, Jun 15, 2012.


Is this a good idea?

  1. Yes! i like it!

  2. No, i dont like it.

  3. I dont care.

  1. bshadow

    bshadow Void-Bound Voyager

    Have a little imagination guys this is all feasible. It's a game we're talking about here and I would love to see some magical aspects in it. If you don't like it, then simply don't play with the magical weapons.
    DevilForce likes this.
  2. ChaoticGamer

    ChaoticGamer Master Astronaut

    why the fuck not? I think it is good idea, sure its sci-fi. Well it is going depend on the game now. :rofl:
  3. Blazerer

    Blazerer Void-Bound Voyager

    I must once again object to this.

    Many people here are state something along the lines of: "If you don't want it, don't use it" but that is no justification as to why it should be in here in the first place.

    If you believe in a god, that's fine to me. But you can't tell me to believe in your god, and not in the magical Dragon-duo Puff and Steve without giving me proof why one is possible and the other isn't. This is no different.

    You want fireballs? We have flame thrower. Do you want ice magic? Make a device that super cools water and shoots it at your enemies. Instead of trying to enforce magic: think up alternatives that work within the already established universe.

    You want magic, that is fine but there is simply no place for it within the current system of logic. Yes, it's a game so not everything is explained but magic is way too over-the-top and way too away from the laws that be that I will not vote in favour of it.

    Also things like this: (On Terraria's magical items and incorporating these into Starbound with a scientific explanation)
    This make it science! Then it's no longer magic! Ergo there can't be magic with a scientific explanation because you'd end up having to use real items and laws, thus making it science.

    Stop arguing to incorporate magic and start thinking of ways science can replace magic.

    Star Trek is a cause of a fair deal of technology today: because someone saw it and decided to figure out how and if it could work. Start doing that here to and if the answer is no: Don't include it.
    Dagorlad and WoxandWarf like this.
  4. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    You have said nothing new. That is what I am suggesting and trying to prove.

    Now on another note, look at the movie Avatar (with Pandora and the blue Na'vi cat people) It is a sci-fi movie (it's similar to this game) and it has some magical feeling. I mean look at the Soul Trees, The connection with the hair and bloody flying mountains! They all look impossible and magical BUT if you study how do those Sould trees work, why do the mountains float, you will no longer think about it as magic, you will think it's science, why can't it be the same with Starbound?
  5. Dagorlad

    Dagorlad Subatomic Cosmonaut

    The floating mountains wasn't magic, it was the magnetic properties of the mineral, the head tentacles were parts of the brain so it's effectively linking the brains together to share information. The only thing that can't be explained would be the tree which for some dumb reason made the planet's fauna stampede in the good guy's direction. And I'm still waiting for the deleted scenes where mankind glasses the planet from orbit, mines out all the resources and solves the energy crisis back home.

    Point still stands, magic has no place on this game, if you want it make a mod after the game's been released.
  6. Kickball1237

    Kickball1237 Aquatic Astronaut

    Alright. Having read the original post and a few of the replies I think I might have a valuable contribution. Maybe not, I suppose we will find out.

    For starters, lets not make this about Gods or the lack there of. I'm an atheist, and I still would love to have magic in this game making that point irrelevant. Here's why:

    The argument here seems to be mainly Science game v.s. Unrealistic game. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what I've read. Who says we can't have both. Imagine the following: You discover a planet and are mining as usual. Set out to find a certain element, iron per say. You find a glowing purple rock that you're unable to identify. You return to the surface and as you are walking towards your base, you are attacked. Without thinking, you (right click) use the rock and it casts a debuff of the mob. Say it poisons it. Hell for examples sake, it can do whatever you want. Glows when you approach certain minerals. Increases air pressure.

    Excited with your find, you leave the planet and return to your main base only to find that it doesn't work there. It only works on the planet you found it on. Could you call it magic? Sure. But for my purposes, I'll call it the unknown. Is there an explanation to it? Maybe. All unrealistic is, is what we have yet to discover. Now if some gamers would rather call it magic, that is their prerogative. It is up to the developers to explain or not too. Perhaps there is a particle emitted by the stone you found that negatively reacts with the native mobs molecular composition. Perhaps you discover this explanation behind what you thought was "magic" through a series of quests after discovering the item.

    This much is certain. Humans are and always will be drawn to the unknown. I personally, and in the same interests as others, would like to see "magic" in this game. If your quarrel is that this is a science fiction game and that there is no room for the illogical, I remind you, finding the explanation is the best part. The best part about video games is being able to create what you can't create normally. Thats sandbox gaming in a nutshell! It doesn't matter how you classify the attributes the item has. Whether they be magic or a scientific anomaly. I don't pretend to see the future so I can't tell you that "magic" is completely unrealistic. It's only an idea we hold. Perhaps in 100 years what people consider their "system of logic" and "science" might be things we thought to be magic. We learn by the day so I don't pretend to be certain about anything.


    "Magic" in itself is an idea. Its not unlikely that some of the things we have today, cell phones, the internet, etc. could be classified as witchcraft by our ancestors not hundreds of years ago. That is not a long time. To believe in an ever expanding, boundless universe (This is a sci-fi game after all) and not believe that creatures exist with perhaps more advanced (or unknown technology) that our primitive minds decide are not within the bounds of the universe than us is foolish in itself. Or even that we (human beings) have nothing left to learn that could baffle our tiny little heads! Entertain the unknown and find enjoyment in discovery, this is a sandbox game after all. The worst that could happen is possibilities open up. Why limit possibilities?

    So yes, "Magic" does fit in the bounds of this sandbox, discovery, sci-fi game.

    Edit: In case you couldn't follow: My point that Magic/Unknown/Unrealisitc/Improbable are all the same word and are all within the bounds of this game. They are within the bounds of this game because we as a species are incapable of defining what is possible and what isn't. It might be out of bounds if this were purely a science fiction game but it isn't.
    DevilForce likes this.
  7. Dagorlad

    Dagorlad Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Just because it's a sandbox type game doesn't mean it's forced to have magic, Mount & Blade is a sandbox game and you can't ride dragons and throw fireballs so that point is meaningless. A rock/mineral that for no reason poisons a native creature also makes no sense, why wouldn't it affect the player which had never set foot on that planet and hurts the creatures that are used to it's presence?

    And like I said before, trying to please everyone ends up pleasing no one because the end result would be a shallow broken game that neither does the sci-fi aspect (the reason we want the game) nor the fantasy aspect (which neither we nor the devs want).
    Kalvuric likes this.
  8. Kickball1237

    Kickball1237 Aquatic Astronaut

    Here's the deal with that. I didn't say the game was forced to have magic. I said magic would fit. It's up to the devs to determine if they add it or not. In my opinion, yeah, there is an audience for it. And as for your disproving of my hypothetical, congratulations. The "Hell, for examples sake" was supposed to indicate a lack of effort in the example for theory's sake. The point behind the example, was planet based special abilities. A planet with characteristics different to those of others therefore allowing certain items to act "magically." As for throwing fireballs and riding dragons, that isn't what I said at all. I mentioned a glowing rock. Which is very possible.

    The point of my first post was just to remind that we aren't certain of anything. To rule out "magic" because of improbability, I feel, would just be ruling out possibilities. Sandbox = possibility oriented gaming. Even if you were right about this being a purely sci-fi game, many sci-fi films and television shows contain magic like elements. It doesn't make them broken or unwanted. If anything it makes them more enticing because as I attempted to estate, humans are drawn to the unknown.
    DevilForce likes this.
  9. Blazerer

    Blazerer Void-Bound Voyager

    1) How about actually addressing my arguments instead of stating 'this is what I mean' and then go of saying the EXACT opposite of what I'm saying.
    2) You're hurting your own argument. Through millennia of symbiotic relationships certain life forms have developed a similarity in sending messages through synapses. This is SCIENCE! not magic. They don't arrive there to find people throwing fireballs.
    3) Stating that Puff the magical dragon could also be made with machinery, does not justify Puff the magical dragon NOT being machinery.
    4) It has been proven that we are no smarter than people living in the Dark Ages, we're simply better educated. This has nothing to do with 'not being able to comprehend it'. If I raise my hand and say some words, fire does not suddenly erupt from my hand, why? Because there is no law that can explain how sound would influence heat, and make it burn everything...except the one touching it. Magic does not exist because we are not smart enough to make it work: It does not exist because it's impossible with the current laws and forces of nature.
    5) Start giving evidence for once. You keep claiming things but not a single shred of evidence is seen. "many sci-fi films and television shows contain magic like elements." Which?
    6) A planet can have different elements, or elements not found here on earth. It cannot have different laws of physics and nature.

    I'm against magic because this is a sci-fi game where the laws of physics mostly apply and the laws of nature mostly apply as far as the game mechanics allow and can handle it. Suddenly throwing in force lightning, fireballs and Puff is not a rational step, it does not belong here.

    It. Does. Not. Fit.

    As I've said time after time again: everyone's time would be much better spend if we'd use it on finding alternatives to magic, not use it to keep yapping and hammering that yes, magic does have a place in a sci-fi setting.

    IT. DOESN'T.
    Dagorlad and Kalvuric like this.
  10. Kickball1237

    Kickball1237 Aquatic Astronaut

    For starters, I'm sorry to disappoint. I was looking at this thread from a casual discussion at best, not a debate qualifying citations, contentions and so on.

    I'm not really interested in defining the laws of physics or debating the philosophy of human correctness over time for the sake of the game. But if you are so intent on making a video game bound to fallible human observed laws, events do occur which suggest other than the laws we have put in place. For example the recent observation by an Australian team that the strength of electromagnetism may change at different places in the universe. The spectral lines they observed break the fine structure constant, or at least suggest that it has changed over time. Or perhaps the Neutrino's that may or may not have broken the speed of light. By any rate, none of this matters. This isn't a simulation game. The goal isn't to be as structured and life-like as possible. If that were true, it wouldn't be a 2D representation of life with robot and bird men on planets full of mutated creatures. Regarding the order of events that have lead to this day in history, that has not yet happened.

    Just as you point out, people are failing to address key arguments. Similarly, you don't address that this isn't a purely sci-fi game. It's sci-fi elements are mixed in a sand box oriented game. As I said, sand box oriented games aim to provide possibility in order to fuel innovation.

    Again, as for cleverly restating your strawman, I have not spoken of Puff. No Dragons. Is that much clear?

    As for your remark regarding my hypothetical, I'm not sure which laws of physics my glowing rock bent. Even if it had, my point was that magic was just the word being used in substitution of the unknown. I don't see the problem with feasible ideas and their offered explanation (Solely regarding this game) as magic. Not every casual gamer is interested in understand why and how the awesome new weapon they found works down to its very quarks. It is up to the developers if the want to provide that type of depth to their game.

    They way I look at it is as follows. Sandbox games are possibility oriented. Science Fiction in itself is a genre designed to present imaginative content and settings with a futuristic feel. "Magic" fits both of those bills in my case.

    To give you one new (I believe) example, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is perhaps one of the most famous Science Fiction/Romance novels to ever exist. In it, Mary Shelley's main character obtains the "secret of life." It isn't shared, but he gains the ability (so it is said) to animate anything of his choosing. This is a valid example in many ways. First being, animation could be regarding as magic. The ability to resurrect? I'd say that is most easily classified as magic. I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the universe's law to offer a detailed explanation of this process, and I don't desire to.
  11. Dagorlad

    Dagorlad Subatomic Cosmonaut

    That wasn't magic, it could be considered a case of bioelectricity similar to electrocuting dissected frog muscles and see them move as if they were alive. If I recall correctly it used a lot of electricity to make the monster move so it's science and not magic. Magic would have been having Frankenstein find a book, say abracadabra and poof, he raised the undead without the need to stitch up a body so all the organs are in the correct place.
  12. Kickball1237

    Kickball1237 Aquatic Astronaut

    Okay. It isn't getting across.

    Frankenstein: "Seeing them move as if they were alive" and creating a living, breathing, learning beast that goes on to desire love and companionship are two different things. He didn't just make the monster move, he made it living creature. The creature was able to sprint at great speads, leap beyond human capability and perform other super-human things.

    Your definition of magic is quite narrow and short sighted. As for the point, which was missed, I said most easily classified as magic. Even if your description of large scale bioelectromagnetism was correct and fitting, I certainly don't see that as the easiest classification. I may be in the minority of gamers, and tell me if I am, but I am confident most gamer's don't have that explanation at their disposal and if they do, they certainly don't look for it in a game.
  13. Dagorlad

    Dagorlad Subatomic Cosmonaut

    And what you and all the gamers here wanting for magic is that the devs themselves stated there will be no magic ever. End of discussion, this will be a sci-fi game which will be obeying most laws of physics and nature. You either corroborate any request with either hard science or a technological base or you find a different game.
  14. Blazerer

    Blazerer Void-Bound Voyager

    About summs it up I guess, bit harshly put I must say though.
  15. Alternal

    Alternal Existential Complex

    Harsh indeed^
    And I do agree with this, but I feel like we'd be missing out on some cool things if we had no magic at all.

    Like what if you're adventuring on some distant planet and come across this giant glowing well with like energy flowing trough it. And just other stuff like that, I mean magic doesn't need to be FIRING FIRE FROM YOUR HANDS, it can be little things here and there, or simply unexplainable occurrences that amaze us.
  16. Kickball1237

    Kickball1237 Aquatic Astronaut

    Alternal just got my point across perfectly. Thank you. :cookie: for you. I'm not asking for fireballs, dragons, or anything too out of the question. I'm just saying that Sci-Fi does have imaginative elements that some people might call magic and that we shouldn't penalize them for abbreviating something that might seem inexpiable.
    Alternal likes this.
  17. Blazerer

    Blazerer Void-Bound Voyager

    You were throwing telekinesis into the fray, that is way past the line of 'little things' for me. The point is that while you may see it this way, most of these posts still go: 'There should be magic, because...'

    That does not leave room for moderation nor clear thought, that is an ultimatum without clear boundaries. As such I cannot, in good conscience, support this.

    In short: Things like the energy well; I'd love to see things I can't explain. However that does not mean I want a system implemented to govern these things. As such a magic system is not required, just put those things in there.

    'We cannot harness that which we do not understand'
  18. Alternal

    Alternal Existential Complex

    See I can even see telekinesis and fire from your hands in this game. Just grab some palm mounted implants, and a brain chip and you're good to go.
    There's plenty of ways to have magic without actually having magic.
    What Kickball1237 and I are trying to say is that not having magic in any form will have us missing out on some cool story or just location possibilities. How are we ever going to have planets with floating islands??
  19. Dagorlad

    Dagorlad Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Same excuse Avatar used, highly magnetic ores being repelled from the planet.

    And yes, I can be quite harsh when something that has been confirmed as never being in the core game being repeatedly demanded for.
  20. DevilForce

    DevilForce Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    Ofc it wasn't magical, but at first glance it looked like it untill you know why they fly.

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