Healing Methods

This sounds totally and completely reasonable to me. Even 1/8th of a second is enough to give a tactical advantage to the enemy, or force you to find a safe spot to heal or whatever. I mean, I never suggested that insta-heal items should be completely removed, or that they need to cripple you each time you use them. I just don't think being a consumable alone is enough to be a suitable downside IF it is instant healing.

You know, this made me realize something. That would be really annoying and painful to deal with.

I want downsides that are just enough to make players consider all of their options instead of just choosing one that is clearly the best.
I don't want downsides that are just plain annoying and painful and are only there for the purpose of balancing a broken mechanic.

Bear in mind: Consumables? Fine. Instant heals? Fine. Both on the same item? Not fine anymore.
That's my opinion. If you have an item that instantly heals you, it should have another downside, like a short cooldown.
Why is that so bad?

 

Looking at the videos it seemed like healing is quite limited compared to Terraria.
I actually like it that way!
Ever been at 1 Heart in Minecraft and watched your health slooowly climb up while you run from an army of Skeletons?
It's nerve wracking and extremely fun!

Terraria may have way more weapons and fancy toys, but I've never found it as exciting as Minecraft!
It's certainly a ton of fun in a different way, though.

In Starbound you can heal very slowly by sleeping, but I'm guessing that later on you heal mostly through Tech items.
Maybe one makes you heal in sunlight and an another feeds on your energy bar to slowly regenerate your wounds?
And yeah Vampiric tech etc.

I think that slower heals are more tactical.

 

Unless healing is restricted to equipment/techs, which means no "medic guns", no medkits/bandages/syringes/potions, then yes, it makes sense for every character to have at least one healing option on-hand.

The problem with your argument is that you want to be on-par with someone that has everything you do PLUS a healing option that you chose to forgo for some reason. I mean, if the game gives you 92(IIRC) inventory slots and 12 hotbar slots, it shouldn't be that painful to dedicate one of them to something that could save your life, or at least a lot of time compared to relying on a tent.

... Actually, now that I think about it, an item that uses up an equip/tech slot that could be used for something else might probably be considered to have a downside.

This. This is exactly why I argued for this kind of item instead of consumables: because everyone has it (or at least the option) it puts everyone on equal footing without having to farm.

Edit: gah, everyone keeps posting so quickly

I would argue that any instant heal should have 2 downsides, actually.

I just don't see why "consumable" has to be one of them.

 

No, not having everything I do. Having everything I do except for the one thing I replace the healing with.

Let's focus on tech items for a moment as an example. Let's say we each have the same tech items in the first three slots, but my opponent uses some sort of tech item for healing in the final slot. I should be able to choose from several other non-healing tech items and still be able to hold my own against this opponent, right?

By filling that fourth slot with a healing option, he is giving up the ability to use whatever tech item I might be using instead. That is the opportunity cost of choosing the healing tech to fill that slot. Filling a hotbar slot is similar, but creates much smaller opportunity cost because you have ten of them, and like you said most players will have one of those be a healing option anyway.

My problem with consumables that don't have other downsides is that there is no opportunity cost. You literally aren't giving up anything. Ever. There is no choice to be made. You must take potions or medkits or whatever, or else you are weaker. You can choose what you want to use for everything else, like armor, weapons, tech, etc... But for this one thing, you pretty much have to use the instant healing consumables to be on-par. That's imbalanced.

In fact, now that I think about it, even if it had a disadvantage like gradual healing it would still be a huge advantage over someone who didn't use it at all. You pretty much have to add a tactical downside, like using up time, energy, or mobility. It still doesn't need to be a huge disadvantage, just enough to be fair to people who don't want to use it.

104 inventory slots compared to 4 equipment slots and 4 tech slots. Sounds like using up an item slot isn't really a downside at all. Because of that, I think it should have some other downside. I don't necessarily think it should be completely removed from the game. I'm not worried about equipment and tech items being balanced, it's just a matter of having good opportunity costs in the form of good equipment or tech that you have to pass up due to limited slots.

I actually really like that suggestion, but I also dislike having this particular form of healing being forced on me.

I mostly agree.

I think healing should be very convenient, but it shouldn't be extremely more challenging to play without any healing. Just very inconvenient with taking many trips to the ship or using tents (which seem to fully heal you within fifteen seconds or so in the current build).

 

100% agreed. That's kind of why I excluded equipment/techs from my example though... >_>

For someone to use an item, there has to be a net-positive effect on your character. If there isn't, the item is essentially useless. If there is, you will have an advantage over someone who doesn't use it.

For example, in Terraria you can make potions that heal 150 Health(for those who don't know, 400 is the max you can have), but can only be used once every 60 seconds. That's a pretty sizeable downside, but does it make the item useless? Not at all. That's still 150 health per minute you didn't have before. And that also means that anyone who uses said item will have 150 Health over anyone who opts to not do so.

There's not really a good way around this fact: if such items exist and are readily available, players will be pretty much obligated to use them in some form. Heck, it doesn't even matter if the items give instant healing or not.

Well, healing is healing, but if it's gradual I wouldn't expect it to work any miracles. Doubly so if gradual healing that comes from other sources won't stack with it.

Which is why I don't consider "consumable" to be a meaningful downside, especially when it can be all but negated by farming. I'll just say that much.

That depends entirely on how important the healing in question is. I would expect that as you rise in tiers healing would become more and more valuable and necessary. But maybe that's just me.

 

Imagine, that potion sickness works for all potions. So now, you have to choose between 150 health every 60 seconds or armor potion, damage potion or any other useful thing (including regeneration). This would be more balanced IMO, though it includes that same cooldown you people seem not to like.

 

Heh. Yeah, and a global cooldown is even worse than a normal one... Though in this case that seems to be the only real solution.

 

I think it should start out as slow healing, like performing first aid, and get faster as you go up in tiers to the point where you have advanced medical equipment that can maybe instantly heal you.

 

I think you are talking about nanobots. ;p

 

Even ? No, situational ? Yes. It's hard to balance everything to be equal (even impossible without making it boring).

Make health pot be on same cooldown as buff pot. So player can choose to be able to heal OR move fast enougth to dodge more/all damage. Same with energy, if player have multiple tools using it (some guns/jetpack/shield) he can choose which one is most efffective for given fight or his figthstyle

 

Exactly, but the opportunity cost should be more-or-less equal to the net benefit. To take a clip from Wikipedia: Thus, opportunity costs are not restricted to monetary or financial costs: the real cost of output forgone, lost time, pleasure or any other benefit that provides utility should also be considered opportunity costs.
Opportunity costs do not actually reduce the net-positive effect on your character, but they effect decision making.

In other words, if I spend 10 mana and 2 seconds casting a spell that heals 100 hp, there is a clear net benefit since my mana will regenerate and I can probably cast the spell without taking damage during those 2 seconds. Casting the spell can obviously be very useful. However, casting the spell needs to be about equally useful compared to the second best alternative, like casting a powerful attack spell or a defensive buff instead. It should depend on the situation at hand.

Exactly! It shouldn't be equal in every situation, but equal in terms of the overall gameplay. If I'm sitting in my base and considering the challenge before me, I should be able to choose which items I bring depending on the situation. There should not be any one item that is an obvious choice above all of the others. I feel like instant healing consumables without any other downsides are exactly such an obvious choice.

To hammer this home, in the example above with casting that healing spell, it might not be worth it to cast that spell if my health is already full. In that situation it is much better to cast an attack spell or defensive buff. Likewise, let's imagine that I'm facing an enemy that I know from experience will die in one shot now, but if I try to heal he will manage to hit me for more than 100 damage and I'll probably die. In that situation it is clearly better to use the offensive spell to prevent taking that damage in the first place, then heal afterwards. For one more final situation, imagine a boss that has damaged me quite a bit, and has just started charging up a powerful attack. I should probably stop attacking and casting buffs and heal up before his next barrage of attacks, because survival is more important in a test of endurance like a boss battle.

By evening out opportunity costs, it means one choice will be better than the others in certain situations but not others. However, if there is no opportunity cost for a certain option, then there is no reason not to take that option every single time, which reduces variety and reduces the depth of the gameplay.

I'm pretty sure this is in like with both of your thoughts.

I mentioned flexible cooldowns before. If I used a health pot that has a 1 minute sickness period, then used a defense pot 30 seconds later, I might only get 50% of the defense benefit, but it would still last the same amount of time as normal so that you could stack multiple pots and mix their effects without getting the full effects of any of them. You might also be able to craft mixed potions that combine multiple potion's effects but to lesser degrees, like a pot that heals half as much as a regular healing pot and also gives a regeneration effect that is half as strong as a regular regeneration pot.

It did seem a little silly when someone could chug every buff potion in their inventory with the press of one key in Terraria, and get the full benefits. Doing so would put you at a significant advantage over someone who didn't spend hours grinding for potions, or someone who wasn't lucky enough to stumble upon the right potions.

 

"Chug all buffs at once" a problem with "having advantage over someone that didn't grind" as that doesn't matter in PvE (PvP is whole another beast), the main problem is that it makes boss fights cheap when you can just counter any boss by just spamming all the buffs and pots.

I'd like some kind of alchemy system but I'm afraid that would have to wait to after release, we already have tons of features coming in

 

I personally hate insta-healing potions with a passion, because of reasons said before. But people tend to like instant healing. So, here goes my ideas on making it feasible, while evading both overpoweredness and grind.

There should be no consumable instant-healing potions. Potions-syringes-medkits should heal gradually and it is even better that they are applied slowly. I never understood "instant potion of instant healing" concept: people, have you tried to drink liquids at all? This process is not instant. And it is implausible to have any sort of ingested liquid to work instantly. Mind you, I am not speaking about "realism" (there are many who seem to be allergic to this word), just plausibility. Healing potion which can help if you were bitten by cybertyrranosaurus and have 1% of normal health? No problem, not realistic, but plausible if it works like a potion. It is magical or supertech, whatever. Medkits can't work instantly, because have you ever seen a medic in action? First aid takes time. Syringes are something potentially close to plausible instant-healing, because they could be used really fast (ignoring the need to find a vein, to hit it precisely... well, still better than drinking, let's just handwave that anything that entered the bloodstream works instantly). But they are probably somewhat high-techy, not tier 1.

Sure, people do like instant healing, which is actually not bad gameplay mechanic if it is used as it is claimed to be used: as a lifesaver in a pinch. And I suggest an alternative: there could be instant consumables to save player's butt, but instead of true healing, they can evoke some sort of protective field. Methods 3-4 from DeadlyLuvdisc's original post. So, if ridiculosaurus attacked me with its' rocket launcher and I am badly hurt, I just use my consumable extra force shield, which allows me to enjoy 50 temporary health points for 10 seconds. Which I use to run away, because it is horribly inefficient compared to good old consumable bandage, which allows me to heal (truly heal) 100 hp in 5 sec animation (can stand or walk, can't jump, attack or sprint or swim, otherwise it breaks in process), or compared to nice nanobot healing, which expends a chunk of energy, but heals (truly heals) me for 20 hp instantly.

Also, consumable extra force shield could (and should) have some additional drawbacks to stop its' spam. It could be either cooldown (but Tiy hates cooldowns, and so am I) or, perhaps, small damage over time effect after it finishes. Or debuff like weakness to damage, or slow, et cetera. Basically it saves you, yes, but it does not allows you to stand in enemy fire, chugging consumables in an endless row. Because it's boring.

So:
- Consumable instant healing provides only temporary health, it can fix some mistakes, but it is not really efficient strategically and brings some consequences.
- Efficient ways of combat healing require either time away from action (retreat and lick your wounds) or expenditure of renewable resource (energy).

Also, adding to healing discussion in general: I think that it could be interesting to have boss-like healing structures which emit healing streams to their owner and maybe his allies. They are costly, large and can be broken, also they can require some sort of energy and/or fuel to work, so you can't just drop it out of your pocket in the middle of nowhere. But they provide so powerful gradual healing that if fight goes on your territory and you are prepared enough, you just don't need additional healing.

 

False health is lame to say the least, gradual health restoration is the way to go

 

Well, it has some of the same problems as instant healing. Mostly that you could stay alive forever by spamming it.

I'd still like to have false health as an option, since it really focuses in on the "for emergencies only" aspect.

 

I tend to hoard gradual health restoration everywhere I play. In TES 4: Oblivion, my custom spellsword had, as a standard tactic, several heal over time spells of various intensity, which she threw over herself before entering melee with dangerous opponents. The problem is, when invested and exploited heavily, gradual healing is almost as cheap as instant no-cooldown consumable healing.

And yes, false health is very lame. No one ever uses it, because game designers tend to go easy on people. There aren't any serious reasons to memorize Aid spell when you can use Cure Moderate Wounds spell. And this is the problem: false health should have a niche, which is right now occupied by way more powerful and handy instant consumables: emergency saving and fixing of tactical mistakes. Fine niche by itself, but instant consumables also occupy another niche: hoard them and gulp them one after another, artificially empowering yourself beyond any comparable way to do so, ignoring enemy damage or whatever. It is a cheap tactic and it should become obsolete.

 

False healing is only good in the short-term, and gradual healing is only good in the long-term. However, instant healing serves both niches. It helps you immediately in the short-term, and it doesn't fade away in the long-term. This convenience that makes it useful in any situation means that even if other methods are more effective in specific circumstances you probably won't use them instead. Players will always prefer to cover all their bases if possible, even if it is less efficient than situational defenses.

It's like how having non-elemental resistance is almost always considered superior to resistance that is tied to a specific element. This is one thing I really liked in Pokemon-- there used to be no Pokemon that was without some weakness. Of course, then they added in Spiritomb and it became an extremely popular defensive Pokemon because it could defend against almost anything you needed it to. Of course, Gamefreaks never cared about competitive balance anyway, so... yeah...

In fact, Pokemon is also a good example of how it could be better. In most games you would prefer to have one move that is non-elemental so that you can always rely on it instead of worrying about an enemy who resists or even absorbs it. However, each Pokemon can learn four moves, so it is better to choose four moves that have good type coverage that overlaps each other's weaknesses so that you can always do super-effective damage. Of course, Pokemon forces this mechanic onto the player because there is no type of attack that is always equally effective regardless of the situation.

You are serving a new niche-- saving what I call "attention resources". When you have to pay attention to tons of things going on at once, you forget things sometimes. With people who are just learning how to play videogames for the first time, they might forget to watch their health bar and die because they didn't heal in time. As the player becomes more skilled, they have a larger and larger pool of attention resources. However, this pool is always limited.

By having your healing work over time, you can focus your attention on other aspects of combat instead of having to react after each attack. This is especially true if you can fully heal within seconds because you still get a great deal of benefit in the short-term. Then your enemy can only kill you with a focused burst of damage, to which you can simply react by raising your shield and backing away while you plan your counterattack.