Gender Neutral PCs

That's what I said.

 

I like the way you assume all white people have no issues fitting in. I was bullied throughout school for being a little heavier than the average student, even by kids who were gay. There's plenty of places in the world where being "white" is not accepted too.

The world is changing though, and people of different sexual orientation are generally accepted.

 

The suggestion that being white means you can't be proud of who you are is also extremely offensive.

 

It is a little. Someone who's gay is more entitled to be proud of who they are than me? That's how it sounded to me..

 

Because it's exactly what he said, and another fine example of trying to demonstrate a belief in equality and tolerance by putting someone on a pedestal above all others. Which is also very offensive to those people!

 

Indeed.

This topic was bound to end up as a slight flame war or argument. @greenman, why can't you just accept that whilst it might sound like a good idea and might even be a good idea, it's just not something people want to see within the game or at very least, something that's very unimportant to most people. I doubt many people will be too hung up about whether their character has a plug or socket.

 

This is ridiculous

Are we reading the same thread? Please point out where I'm being intolerant. Please show the posts where I'm saying anything other than the primary message: "Promote Equality".

I didn't say white people don't have issues fitting in. I didn't say people should be ashamed of being part of the majority. I did say that simply being proud to be straight male isn't really saying much when we're talking about under-represented groups. I was trying to make a point about white privilege.. That's a topic for another discussion though, but feel free to google it for some reference.

My post is still up if you need to reread it... I'm not putting anyone on a pedestal..

You know, fellas, this would be less of a "flamewar" if people made counter suggestions, cooperative suggestions, or just let the thread die due to disinterest.
People sure are fighting hard about something they claim not to care about...
.

 

I don't actually have a problem with some of these suggestions at all, just with the self-righteousness.

That's just ignorant nonsense, for example. I can't be proud of who I am because I'm not oppressed. But minorities do have that right because they are oppressed, therefore we should be talking about how they are oppressed to raise awareness. Let's take these people who should be ordinary human beings like any other and make a big deal out of the fact that they exist. Deny their equality by insisting everyone pay attention to what makes them different from us.

That's what you're doing here. This thread wasn't a response to someone calling people queers or faggots, or any other reprehensible boorishness like that. It's not a response to an actual problem that needs to be addressed. It exists just to call attention to an issue that no LGBT person has actually raised. It exists to deny the normalcy of a group by insisting we pay them special heed. This isn't a thread about men being able to wear skirts because having full customization of your character is cool, it is expressly about LGBT people.

That is what I take issue with. I'm offended that you think I have no right to be happy with myself as a "heteronormative" white male and that you think you need to speak for a group whose greatest desire is to not be unusual and have their sexual preferences be the center of discussion all the time. You're not doing anyone any good. You're giving people who oppose all of this stuff ammunition for the "shoving things down our throats" argument they like to use, and you're actually doing transgenders and gays a disservice by making it out like they need to be talked about when the opposite is true.

They don't need to be talked about, they need to be left alone and treated as normally as any other human being deserves to be. I'm already aware that these people exist, as are the unfortunate people who find their existence repulsive aware that they exist. All this "raising awareness" nonsense does is make people who are different stand out more than they already do by highlighting how they are abnormal. And that's wrong.

You keep suggesting we let the thread lie? You let it lie. I already let this lie in my everyday life. I strive to treat everyone with the dignity they deserve by never, ever putting them on the spot about whatever peculiarities make them different from me, and if you truly believe in equality I suggest you start doing the same and drop the apologist schtick. Fight intolerance and inequality where it actually exists and let everyone else just go about their business.

 

I am going to look like an ass now because it looks like im talking to myself when people read this.

 

Don't worry, you're not alone in that.

 

After reading all this, I want to ask one thing: greenman are you unhappy because people pointed out that your idea isn't perfect and at first gave suggestions to improve it of which you made an almost all-out flame war?
The suggestion MIGHT be good. But (some of these were posted before, sorry for reposting):
1. The selection is just for sex, not your psychological gender.
2. The NPC's most likely will refer to you as your name or just plain "You".
3. The Glitch was a civilization experiment, thus they have that appearance that is very similar to humanoid sexes.
4. The Floran, probably as a lot of flora on Earth, may have been without a gender but mutated when they first made contact with other species (it's easier to be a predator when your prey wants you (if you know what I mean))
5. Many people that you will play with would most likely happily adress you as he/she/it/that one/omgwtfbbq if you point out how you want to be adressed.
6. I don't think anyone can imagine how would sexless character would look like and even if they did, others would say that is wrong because they imagine them somehow differrent (sexless because they want to be it and maybe this one).

I think others could point out more issues but honestly, you really seem like a guy/girl (sorry for this you seem so offended I don't even know how to adress you) that don't want any problems with your suggestion and don't want them pointed out.

 

Well, I'd like to be done arguing. It's not like people are trying to understand my perspective. No doubt someone will try to turn that around at me, but whatever.. Self-righteousness and all that.

Does anyone have anything positive to contribute?

Hi, My name is Sean and I have a bachelors degree in digital technology and culture. I have done a considerable amount of research in the subject of digital diversity, specifically, gender identity in online communities. I'm currently in my second year of a master's program with an emphasis on new media, and interactivity. As such, I feel like I have a fair amount of perspective in this arena, and felt like it would be acceptable to post my thoughts in the suggestion forum for a game I'd like to see do well in a global setting.

 

Help us, or at least me, because I'm extremely interested, in trying to understand your perspective.

 

Backing out of a debate you can't win without actually conceding defeat, then making an appeal to authority for yourself as though your credentials mean anything. Get over yourself; I understand your position just fine, and your position is misguided.

 

...Ahem...
I was generalizing.
Also, removing the male/female choice would be too big of a change for the ones already set their whole story in stone and would likely cause a big shitstorm of hate. Don't ask why. Humans are assholes like that.
Also, "Unspecified" could mean the exact same thing. It's just sugar coating it so that people don't get offended. :I
Oh, and again, removing male / female options entirely, what would NPCs address you as if it was a situation in whence calling by name would not make sense? Would they react based on which body part you chose? No. That would take too much time to code each and every body type to a certain sex.

And yes, I read every page. I like reading. Especially things like this where it turns out you're the thick-skulled one, "As it has been made by myself and others in this thread"
is that psychological and biological are completely different. You're asking for a psychological option next to a biological choice.
Which doesn't make sense.
You also seem to love bringing up how productive / non-productive things are.
Tell me, how would it be productive if they took the time to reorganize the character creation GUI to add a tick box that, as you have also stated yourself, wouldn't actually add anything to the game. Please do, explain.

 

I am confused.

 

Removing male and female would just negatively affect the majority of normal people. I don't know about you guys, but I enjoy clicking the box next to male when I make a rpg character. I don't feel like this basic thing should be affected by such a small group of people. Add some "unspecified" choice- yes. Remove male and female- strong no.

 

Get out.

Anyway, I think the actual topic here is-
Allowing clothing and hairstyles etc. to be available regardless of a button you clicked at character creation.
As Pseudoboss posted about, pronouns, if they're a thing.

 

I have stated my opinion and that is that. You don't have to tell me to "Get Out" just because you don't agree with it, because well, I won't. I think there should be a section for Male Character models, female character models, and then an unspecified section where both male and female are available to choose from. I am sorry if I didn't make that clear enough. Also, you should be able to choose from 3 sexes: male, female, and other/unspecified. Nothing should be removed just because it may offend a small group of people.