Game progression mechanics discussion.

Well, more of a glorified idea dump than a discussion as it's too soon in beta to make any solid arguments about the poor state of the progression mechanics.

For those of you who don't know how the progression mechanics currently sit:
Get materials -> make weapons and armor ->fight boss->repeat

My question is: How should game progression be done instead of the current system.

I understand that discussing this topic wont change anything, and that the game is in early beta, so there is that. But I do want to hear peoples opinions on how it could be better.

Wall of text, its just a rambling jumble of thoughts so don't read if that sort of thing twists your anus in a knot.

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When I think about a game like this I always think of Starflight as that game is the ideal space adventure for my personality type.
I love the trading mechanics, I love the loneliness, I love the sandbox nature of the game. The game makes sense when you play it. The technology is balanced, so the player upgrades to a certain level then has to rely on game play skill alone to survive. The really good weapons and tech are artifacts you find and you eventually become an semi-omnipotent being. The races are at war with the token evil race that is stronger and meaner. But not so much stronger you wonder why they haven't crushed yet. I believe starcontrol is another game like this (never played it though).

My point is this: You can't have sectors be more powerful progressively, it makes no sense. A hostile race from the most powerful sector would wipe out the weaker sectors unless you had an overarching story of the more benevolent races from the most powerful sector playing god (by which I mean, startreking it up with the prime directive. Fight the baddies without making your presence known type of mentality). I guess I just nullified my first sentence in this paragraph, as now that I think on it that might actually be fun. Lest say the current playable races are from a backwoods part of the universe, the story is about travelling and finding out about this great battle being fought. You can bring back advanced tech to your home sector for legitimate profit and the overall advancement of your sector. Or, for war profiteering and the goal of being uber rich.

-Starmaps should be looted or discovered, not crafted. It hurts my brain to figure out how one would craft a star map from a dragons tooth, or a microprocessor that you made yourself but didn't have access too until you defeated the thing you made . Not being able to get to a sector without a starmap is an acceptable game play mechanic as the universe is big, but the tech difference needs to be though out more. Earth has titanium, I should not need to fly to a distant sector to mine titanium. Let me have titanium, and hold off the ability to make higher tier stuff until blueprints are discovered.

-Adding coal to a metal to make it stronger is bad. Especially every time you find a new metal. It's like your character is stupid beyond belief when you cant figure out that recipe on your own, you have to unlock a new sector to be able to put 2 and 2 together.

-If I can mine diamonds willy nilly, the NPC's should be able to mine willy nilly. The npc's break the game when you see an derp-centric villager literally standing on a huge vein of diamonds on the surface, and you mine it out from under his/her feet. Where did the village come from? why is there still ore on the surface? Admittedly, this is probably being addressed in later releases, but I just wanted to throw that out there. To alliterate a bit; I want to destroy a village because they are mining all the good materials, not just because they are stupid and I hate them. This does not effect progression I guess, it was just bothering me. Also, a massive planet that is inhabited solely by 3 clothing vendors scattered across the land..... that has to stop, that is the the pinnacle of immersion breaking. What were those vendors thinking? did they arrive together with hopes of selling clothing to the local wildlife? Why do they only have a wagon to sleep in? WHAT IS GOING ON!!!!????

-Ship upgrades would be a better way to cut out sectors than star maps. Star maps should be for not flying blind, NOT for hamstringing the player. And it should not only be ship upgrades, it should be mixed up a bit. First, get a ship upgrade to get to the beta sector, then diplomatic relations to get into the next sector, perhaps find a wormhole and defeat the bone dragon that feeds off the energy of the wormhole to gain access.... so on....

I'm going to stop here even though I could go on and on, I don't think many will read this far anyway, and if anyone posts other than to tell me this has already been done and to go f- myself i'm sure their ideas will be more coherent and better thought out than mine.
The somewhat ambiguous purpose of this thread is to get ideas for what will hopefully be an easily moddable game, and what is lacking can be fixed. I know this grinds some peoples gears to expect a game be fixed by the modding community but it is what it is, as jmiller says. And what it is, is a game in early beta, so i'm not too worried yet.

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"Start us of with basic crafting recepies, then let us find everything else by exploring planets. Make the bosses drops some sort of rare material (preferably used in more than one recepy), and not function at all in the progression but for those materials. Also, instead of just weapons/armor/tools that are direct linear upgrades add in some that acts in a different way or gives specific bonuses."
That would make the progression feel more free and natural, at least to me. As well as buff up the incentive to actually explore, wich is sorely lacking atm. They really need to mix things up a bit, as I currently feel that there's nothing in this game atm (or any signs that there will be) that feels original or creative, it's pretty much just different things copypasted from other games, seemingly without much thought on how to put an original "flavor" on them.

 

wow. I understand this game has its flaws and all, but some of the expectations put on this game are a bit high!

 

I agree with this. This method has the benefit of explaining why you are better geared that other people, as the boss has not been defeated before (we assume) and therefore noone but you has the boss materials. The discovery of the game is the key to fun I think, not riding the rails and seeing what we are supposed to see when we are supposed to see it.


As for GameQB11, I also agree with what you are saying, but nothing I have stated is that big of a change. It comes down to quest setup and clever woolpulling. The mechanics are already in place, they just need to be presented better. And I'm sure they will be, this is just a discussion and speculation, not a torch brandishing.

 

i was referring to your idea of immersion. While i do agree that the game could use some immersive elements, i see too many complaints about it. Some people want this game to be a deep story driven RPG. Chances are it wont ever be that. Any story implemented will be there to usher you through the randomized content, not for immersion.

I just think expecting complex alliances, trade systems, societies, NPC behaviors, economies is out of place in a game like this. The majority of anything added to this game will be to make the mining and finding loot more engaging. Thats what kind of game this is.

Sure, theres a chance they eventually convert this into an epic space RPG, but all signs point to this being another take on the block mining genre. So far its doing a good job at that, but It still needs some polish and refinement to be great.

 

I don't understand this need to lower expectations for a game with so much potential.
To me, this is a game about exploration. A game where you choose your own path, make wonderful discoveries, build some funky doo-dads, and become the greatest space pirate.

Honestly, the current system is kind of garbage (yes, beta). The whole mining thing isn't really "fun" and shouldn't be the central focus of the game, but instead be the background mechanic that we use when we need/have to.

All the things you say would be out of place in Starbound has me thinking that you just want to play Minecraft in Space.
This is not Minecraft in Space.

Just go read the About page of Starbound.
The game they describe is not some boring mining grind, but an epic story-driven space RPG.

 

Do note that the current tier based system will not be in the final game. Though that is a common misconception that comes up rather regularly.

 

...but it is. It IS Minecraft / Terraria in space.

You have nothing but wild speculation and expectations to prove otherwise. You'd be hard pressed to find an epic RPG where the story comes almost dead last in development.

Sure i would love to play that epic space RPG, but this isnt that game. Its not a knock against SB at all. I think its good at what its trying to be, and its what initially attracted me, and im sure many others, to it.

This is what im talking about when i say either the devs have built this up to be something it wont be, or some are taking the descriptions to be much more than what it will be.

In all honesty- how do you think they will turn this around into an epic story driven RPG? Do you think the upcoming quest will be a deep and engrossing 40+ hr long story? DO you think there will be factions, simulated economies, growing cities? Do you think NPC behavior A.I is going to get a major overhaul to the point where there are self sustaining and living? Beyond a few aggression triggers and quest, , i doubt we are going to see much more from the NPCs. they're just dressing for the main gaming mechanic.

 

Noted^^. I have read and reread the documentation, as it is humorous and informative.... I am so pumped for this game, that I just wanted to create this thread to vent some frustrations that are in reality, unjustified, given the current stage of releases. But that is what this forum currently seems to be for; posting fears, wants, and slander. And I might as well climb on the crap pile and give my opinion and be told to naff off. It's part of the release cycle of any game. I don't know how starbound will turn out, but I do know there is still lots of time, and lots of mods yet to come.

I never liked minecraft. I was hoping for more of a 'mound&blade makes a baby with terraria, in space' type of game, not minecraft.
Honestly, I have played the crap out of starbound, and all I really want is: to fly in my spaceship, to live in my space ship, to add to my spaceship, to farm in my spaceship, and trade my goods. So far I am one release away from being able to do that (likley). The game will be %100 made for me if I can do those things and anything else will be gravy. I don't need super in depth NPC's I just need to be able to interact with them in a basic way. Greet them, give them stuff, they give me stuff. The fact I can spawn them on my ship already is wonderful, except they bother me with their blandness and poor fashion choices so I soon put them 'out the airlock' (introduce them to the largest hammer I currently own)

 

Glad to hear you're excited for it Though I certainly won't say these forums are devoid of toxicity, and though certainly it's true that lots of game communities are prone to impassioned infighting, I hope we can do our part to reduce our contributions to any alleged, err, crap piles.

 

Nothing that was said before you posted this was a high expectation, more of a basic necessity. This game is seriously boring once you realize all you're doing is making gear to get to the next tier. Once I got to delta and found aegisalt, I didn't even need to make any more gear. I just made the tech requirement to get the next ...tech requirement, went to whatever level planet, mined for the required material, made the..tech requirement.. and.. that was it. I got to impervium and completely stopped. That's terrible. I skipped ALL the gear and weapons and just stood there making ore and tech chips because there is no reason to make any of that stuff. In fact, when you get to impervium, that's it. There's nothing else to do. Bases don't have a purpose, you can't colonize worlds in any manner other than aesthetically, the types of machinery available are very limited and do not require a power source to maintain.

We need to not be automatically given recipes. There needs to be one giant sector filled with all level planets, we need to find recipes by exploring and not be given them automatically when we use an item. If we stumble onto a planet that is too high level for us, that's our fault. The game corrals you into doing exactly what you need to do and it's terrible and boring. It's supposed to be a sandbox game, there's no sand in this box. It's just a sidewalk with signs telling us exactly what to do. The game is in its early stages and it has so much potential. But if they keep this lame tier system like it is, it's going to cause people to get burned out faster than they do with Terraria. Once I realized all I was doing was making gear to kill a boss to get the next tier unlock, I died inside. They can do better than this, I'm sure they will.


Although in one earlier statement, Tiy said the tier system was a placeholder and then later, said the tier system was being expanded upon. The tier system should be removed and we should be left to our own devices. There needs to be a sense of discovery, not 'go here, do this' for the entirety of the game.

 

Yep, that'd be sweet. I should be able to at least try and go to a planet where the lifeforms can kill me instantly, and I can try and kill them to get more....whatever it is I need. I think the top tier stuff should be artifact gear of some kind that is protected by powerful golems/automatons/plant beings/whathaveyou to justify its difficulty to get and its rareness.
I don't quite know how ore distribution vs mob difficulty should be handled. More ore should != more mobs as they are unrelated.
Monsters should be fought for a reason, not just because they are there, and monsters shouldn't be tougher because the ore is better, unless it can be justified somehow (monsters are made from the ore like we are made from carbon).
I think:
tougher atmospheres= tougher monsters= better ore

Also,
very rare to find+very sparse distribution=better ore.
That way you can make a personal quest to get the rare ore gear and get well ahead in stats while feeling like you achieved something other than stat building. Meaning, the awesomeness of your gear is justified and its reasonable that not many have what you have,

 

I'm curious if a research mechanic would not be a good way for the player to progress through the crafting recipes. I'm thinking something similar to the XCOM Enemy Unknown form of research where you analyze raw materials and then get a hand full of new items to craft. Perhaps blueprints would contain schematics for wets of items instead of singular ones.

The idea that being able to reach different sectors comes from upgrading the ship instead of crafting new maps is one I like a lot. alternatively, finding the maps could be a pice of the ship upgrade process.

 

they could simply have locked chest on tough planets and material that we need advanced pick to mine. Anyone that is brave enough to farm strong monsters deserve the random drops. this would be a simple way to make it feel like a natural barrier to high tier gear.

 

Oh god, this can of worms again. Judging by how new your account is @neil_v I'll assume you weren't around for the other shitfests that occurred around this subject matter, long story short, people will always be against you just because you have the audacity to disagree with the design choices in the current iteration, regardless of whether those have been said to change. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you, and frankly people saying this game is Terraria in Space have missed the entire point in my eyes, the ground work is there for an amazing exploration game, however it is currently being consistently kneecapped by poor methods of progression that just force the player down an overly linear path.

 

You assume correctly Elate, There are threads I have been looking at (the disappointment one, for example) that did give me a hint that this has been discussed before, but at least with these discussions we can know where people stand, and in the future, we can have an idea of what we should try to achieve in our own games (for those that make games) and what to ask for from a dev if they ask the community what they would like.
As someone who makes games for fun, I realize my ideas aren't always the best even though they seem good to me.
When someone mentions something like Lord_Raken did with using the Xcom progression system of research, that is an awesome suggestion, Xcom has a proven system that give a sense of involvement and management that is still unequaled today. Or GameQB11's suggestion about having locked chests that are in accessible, its a neat workaround, but I would like to be able to take the chest even if I cant open it. Or make it a really big container so I don't feel like I should be able to take it for later.
In starbound I have a scroll I cant use unless I am a wizard, I can carry it around but I cant read it (don't spoil it for me if I can read it, but I am just dumb and haven't figured it out yet).
This game has sold over a million, but there are just a relatively few people posting their opinions on this forum. It might be a language barrier, but it also might be a certain personality type that ends up posting in forums, and that demographic might be generally more negative in general.... I don't know, just speculation,

 

Judging by the amount of people that were playing Starbound on my friendslist (30 people with the game) that are no longer playing it (as in, I haven't seen anyone playing in days, and these were people who were hyped and preordered), that shows that even though it might only be the small minority that voice their opinion, there seems to be some underlying issue with the game that is driving people away. Especially considering it was only released last month, even if it is in beta.

So I see what you're saying, but I disagree. It seems the view is negative in general, and there is just a small vocal minority of (for lack of a better term) sycophants, who dislike any criticism levied against the game, regardless of value because it doesn't coincide with their quite strict view of what the game should be. We had this issue with the game difficulty, people complaining the devs were making it too easy and giving in to pressure from the community, even though players were getting one shot on the starting planet from birds.

 

At risk of being flame-broiled; a bit more like Terraria? Terraria uses functionally similar barriers to progression, but conceals them better, making advancement feel a touch more natural and integrated. Terraria shows us 'advanced' stuff without giving us access to it (unable to mine, unable to survive, unable to reach etc), but in Starbound the advanced stuff is hidden, and most of it is 'normal stuff +1' anyway, so motivation and longevity are diminished.

Tiers are somewhat clunky. Good sandboxes get by without resorting to overtly segregating it's game-world, instead controlling player traffic by using difficulty curves etc.

Would propose a single galaxy. Not sure how to implement it.

I guess that if you burned yourself out on Terraria, Starbound won't hold interest for that long? Or maybe people are more controlled than I and waiting until a more advanced Beta stage.

 

I don't know.. I have 100s of hours in Terraria, and I'm loving Starbound.. Though, I can't say I'm playing it as it's meant to be. My playstyle is more.. Instrument and Cosmetic Collector: Space Edition.

And most of these people have spent 100s-1000s of hours in Terraria, so I can't see why they would get bored of Starbound so fast if they can make Terraria last that long.

 

I was just playing starbound and there was a villager randomly tilling soil. It was nice to see, even though the villager would till one block then jump or begin pathing. I also like how when I interacted with the villager they offered to go for a roll in the hay then proceeded to till another block of soil.

Well, we must not disagree too much because what you are saying is totally true.
anyway...
I love steep difficulty in certain aspects of the game, but it should not be difficult to farm and mine and run about on a colonized planet or the planet would not be colonized to begin with. Colonized planets should have minimal rewards grind/exploration wise, and maximum rewards trading wise. It gives the illusion of the good stuff already being done on said planet, and gives the player the drive to colonize or explore another planet.
Another cool feature would be quests to colonize planets of certain specifications given out by village leaders. They give you a grant and/or npc generators. if you succeed in setting up a colony they pay you. This would give a lot of mileage to the game and it would be simple to implement as the devs are putting in room recognition. As you succeed in building and expanding the colony the mob spawn rate decreases in that area... lots to think about there.

Unless the sectors are actually the Dev's way of saving space and handling data quicker. Hard to say.