Does anyone else agree with me...

I don't mind if it stays or if it goes - Im cool either way.

But I have to wonder, perhaps further game updates will explain, but why are we penalized for saving something we've rightfully earned?


For example, Terraria didn't take a % from you when you banked your coins, yet you did lose a % on death. Banking removed the death penalty per se, but also required you to take the time to go bank those coins before something bad happened. In Starbound we are doing the exact same thing - only we're losing 40% for no explicable reason (yet anyway). And yes, I know this isn't Terraria, but that's where the precedent lies so you'll have to excuse the comparison

For the record Im perfectly ok with the 40% loss, pixels are easy to farm up anyway so its no big deal - I am just curious as to what the logical explanation for the loss is. (Excessive banking fee? Massive donation to the Give-A-Glitch-A-Soul Foundation? Just 'cause? Etc?)

 

Beer Underwriting for Righteous Primates ( project B.U.R.P.)

 

Might as well be asking why I'm spending pixels to craft things with my materials at my crafting stations. What am I paying for? Sacrifices to the crafting gods? Are all my tools pixel plated? Outside of merchants do pixels serve any purpose other than lengthening playtime without expanding content?

 

I think the system is fine. If you're reasonable, you refine your stuff.

On the other hand, I think they should change the cost for the Voxels. Refining a 1k Voxel should net you 1k Pixels and the cost of the 1k Voxel should be adjust accordingly

 

Not at all

The real reason people feel this is "too high" is because they also feel the death penalty is "too high" and the compressor mitigates this "uncomfortable penalty" but its still too uncomfortable for players who are used to games with little to no penalty.

If you think about it, what use, really is gold in Terraria? for the first time player it may represent a small challenge to over come, but not long after that gold becomes an infinite resources with little to no value.

Personally I'm sick of games that not only have little to no death penalty but I also get sick of games where the currency becomes meaningless. When currency becomes meaningless so does its pursuit, which to me is a significant part of 'gaming the game'

I recognise that the majority of players arnt of the same mind right now, to those I would say, if you de-value your currency and your death penalty NOW, you wont ever be able to go back! OK, some smoothing an polishing maybe required, but right now I like this penalty and the value I perceive in staying alive, along with the value of my precious resource.

I would advise caution and forward thinking before making or suggesting changes to systems like these. Its like carving a statue, if you make a mistake, you cant put it back!

 

Tiyuri announded on twitter: "Starbound now has 3 difficulty modes. Drop pixels on death, drop everything on death and lose your entire character on death! Also pvp"

So I'm assuming there won't be an easy mode without any loss - except if you mod the game, which is also completely viable way if that is the gameplay you prefer.

Personally I'm not too fond of death penalty, but for me 10% loss on death and 20% loss in voxels would be something I wouldn't mind at all.

 

I think that is part of the point. If people don't mind 10% loss, it isn't much of a penalty.

 

I mean, i would go *sigh* still on loss, but that wouldn't be like a frustrating thing for me. There's a difference when certain ammount is to high for majority of ppl, and makes them feel frustrated. It has even worse effect on the game. People stop playing at early stage instead at late.

 

I agree with this. A 1K voxel should actually be worth 1K, and cost 1650 or so pixels to craft.

 

I'd use the voxels if they retained more of their value.. 20% loss is acceptable in my eyes, but 40% makes them utterly useless to me, even in mid-tiers.

I think the death penalty is okay, it's the only thing that prevents would prevent me from rushing into enemies like a moron. The down-side however is that it is pretty much pointless in the beginning, since you don't deal with pixels too much during crafting early-game stuff.. That being said, it's also pretty pointless in the end-game, since it becomes extremely easy to gather tons of pixels in the later tiers.

I hope the devs take a look at the death penalty system. I know they added "a difficulty system" (not really), but losing all items on death is a terrible idea in a game where most of the things you have in your inventory are considered rare/unique loot. The reason why it works in games like mc is because the loot isn't as varied and random there (there are no random weapons), and most of the things you lose can be crafted/mined again, they are expendable. Also, smaller inventory and stacks.. Less to lose, it keeps the amount of rage on a manage-able level most of the time

Something like losing random 1-2 items on death could be much more interesting though in a game like Starbound (with exceptions like matter manipulator), you'd avoid the risk of losing your cool stuff, because there's always that chance that it happens, but it wouldn't throw you back so much that you'd instantly ragequit.

It's important to make new players realize that dying is not a solution, losing % pixels simply doesn't do it, it doesn't feel of any importance.

 

First my personal view, then something helpful to those that disagree.

This discussion has been done to death so many times. Personally I feel the system is fine, inbetween two wipes I've now amassed 300k to take out from voxels (after the 40% loss) and have nothing to spend it on, unless I want to make tiles in the pixel printer or something. As has been pointed out by so many if you're to have a 30% death penalty then anything below that in compression 'tax' would be useless and 10% on top is fair.

Now on to those that disagree. First off, I don't see the point of even discussing this, you're 100% free to change it to suit your liking. And I'll tell you how.

Starbound/assets/recipes/refinery/voxel10k.recipe (or/and the others)

Code:

"output" : { "item" : "money", "count" : 6000 },

Change 6000 to whatever amount you want.

Next up, death penalty.

Starbound/assets/player.config

Code:

"reviveCost" : {
  "absolute" : 1,
  "percentile" : 30.0
  }

Change 30.0 to whatever percentage you like.


Bottom line, you're spending more time being upset about it, making posts about it and arguing/discussing it than it would take you to dig through some files (or ask!) and change it for yourself, to enjoy YOUR OWN gameplay.

 

Dunno, but perhaps we're discussing this because we all want it to become a better game... I thought that was the point of beta testing, but I'm probably wrong about that.

Following your logic, people should develop their own game and play that, instead of buying a game and enjoy it or give feedback on how to improve it... Which sounds crude to say the least.

That's right, keyword being "personally". Not everybody has the same playing style as you do, hence the matter is being discussed, to make this game better. Not everybody possesses the knowledge, will, or know-how to adjust the values to their liking and in the future this might even become impossible to do for clients on multiplayer servers. This whole discussion is about improving the main game.

You can't convince me that this whole thing isn't an issue if it has been brought up so many times, it means something is wrong somewhere...

 

I have no use for the compressor as it is now. I would be happy if it were 25-30% loss while the death was 20%, just to keep some kind of ratio.

I think it is just too extreme of a %. Not that it matters much to me, as I have no use for it. My pixel conservation is in the ores that I pick up, so mining all ores or most is my way to get as many pixels that I would need for anything. Different approach to some degree. Yes using the refinery, but not just shoving any random amount in the thing. I actually only use the machine when I need a certain amount of pixels, and determine from the ores I have in order to get that specific amount. Lots of math in that one, at least in mind.

Regardless if it gets changed or not, I probably will not use it until I do amass a fairly large amount... never gotten that much on hand 4-6k is really not that much, and I can get that back if I pay attention to the ores. Never got over 10k before, so I see no reason to use that machine for something as little as that...

 

The problem with the pixel conversion rate is that it's not really all that... 'risk vs reward'-y. The static 40% feels a bit steep, yeah, but the problem with it is that it's 40% whether you have a thousand pixels or a hundred thousand. My suggestion would be to make it more interesting. Make it possible to compress pixels at a much more varied set of numbers, and make the compression process be less efficient if you compress fewer pixels, and more so if you compress more.

As an example, and this number is FAR from refined, start off at a 60% loss, and slowly curve up to only a 10% loss, or even 0% past a certain point. That way, it's actually a decision, a risk to be taken - do you compress your pixels now, while you'll lose more doing so, or do you try to save them until you have more, and compression is more worthwhile? Do you think you can survive well enough to amass the amount needed to keep them safe, and is it worth the extra 10% to lug around all that cash you could lose on bad luck?

 

I believe that the reason people feel this sting of 40% pixel loss is because of the refinery being able to turn the extremely common minerals into a TON of pixels. There's a few ways to go about solving this problem that I can think off the top of my head:
1) greatly reduce/remove loss of pixels on death. Remove the compressor.
2) greatly reduce the cost of the compressor. Even a moderate reduction won't change the complaints that people have.
3) reduce the amount of pixels received from the refinery.
4) remove the refinery.

All of these would be viable solutions. My opinions of these select solutions:

I don't like 1, because it's removal of content, and it leads to the careless insane behavior you commonly see in Terraria softcore. There's no penalty, so might as well just do whatever you like (yes, you lose gold on death, but any sensible person just stores it).

I don't like 2 because it makes banking pixels just so easy, which isn't a bad thing for most people, but I like a good difficulty curve. I know not all people do, so perhaps this is the best solution in this most certainly incomplete list.

My preferred choice is 3, because then it makes the 40% pixel loss an interesting measure. Ideally the reduction is enough that you gain pixels significantly faster from enemies than from the refinery, so keeping pixels has a risk factor to it. Refining is a boon, icing on a cake, but by no means the primary source of income, because it's just not as efficient. This means that turning your pixels into voxels is perhaps still a faster way of storing pixels than just going down to a planet for 35 seconds to gain a whole bunch of ore, which has no real loss of pixels, and is currently the fastest way of gaining pixels by quite an absurd margin.

I don't like 4, because it means you'll have a ton of useless ore by the end of the game, and it removes content.

 

though i think balancing this mechanic would take some time, this sounds like a good and polished solution. This system rewards you for saving as many pixels as possible. It kind of gives you a meta goal of going as long as you can without dying, and knowing when to bank them.

Little things like this is what can make a game.

yes, option 3 would be best for balance.

 

But you're not discussing it, you're rehashing the same old arguments and beating the already dead and mutilated horse into a fine red mist. Death penalty is a game function, people whined and a way to save money was added. People still whine to 'balance' it when they can balance it themselves to suit their personal style. There's NEVER going to be a balance that's fine for everyone, nor even the major population, since the major population is happily gaming while (and excuse the ageold terminology) 'hardore' players complain it's too easy and 'casuals' complain it's too hard.

You're not following my logic at all. There's no need to develop your own game, we have Starbound which is shaping out to be awesome, yet moddable enough that if you want to add a weapon, you can, if you want to tweak your ship, you can, if you want to skip death penalty, guess what, you can.

This 'discussion' isn't feedback, it's entitled whining that's been going on and on, and will keep doing so, since some can't seem to sit down to learn how to mould this game into the game they want it to be. Modders aren't developing it, they're simply adding or changing things to cater to different playstyles. And if it hasn't been done, do it yourself or suggest it.

But can it really get better by whining until the devs knuckle under and remove core game mechanics that they themselves wanted in the game, simply because a vocal few don't feel like it?

Then ask nicely if someone can help you, teach you, or even just make it a mod. If you're seriously unable to download or install mods to cater to your playstyle then there's literally no possibility that you won't be disappointed, because it's impossible to cater to everyone's needs. EXCEPT with modding, or tweaking things yourself.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I see it as nothing more than beating a dead horse. There's no logic behind wanting the mechanics changed simply because you can't deal with it. If it's too hard, guess what, maybe you should play something else. If you're unwilling to progress by learning, 'grinding' your way through to the other side by effort, or by modding / changing a few numbers around, then perhaps the game isn't for you.

Forcing the devs to dumb down and simplify the game just for you rather than admitting that it's too hard, asking for help or putting the effort into modding it yourself is just selfish. Really really selfish.

A million copies have been sold. A vocal few complain about it on the forums. The vast majority are fine with it, some find it too easy, become bored and move on (or keep playing / mod / whatever), some find it too hard but keep at it, then there's the minor few who struggle so bad that they come to the forums for moral support and a pat on the shoulder telling them that "no, you're not really that bad at the game".

If you can't follow actual logic or actual maths, then there's no convincing you that the system is fine.

 

I don't think any of that would change much, except #2. Even though this seems like a good idea, it really isn't, as then the cost of dying is less and almost negligible.

#3 will not change much. For as long as you can refine, there will be people out there that would prefer that over the 40% loss of compacted. I am one of those, that this would not affect much. The only effect would be adding more tedium, lengthening the time it takes to get those pixels from the ores. I am quite a patient person, so that kind of thing will work for me, as for others this might actually work due to time constraints and the like.

That is one reason I would just preferred a small decrease in both penalty and voxel making. At least 10%. Well is how I see it.

#1 & #4 are just crazy talk, as that wouldn't solve anything. The only thing #1 would do is create the problem of their current difficulty of keeping pixels out the window. Not that it is very difficult to begin with. Although I can probably see #1 as a possibly mode like peaceful (but not the same) to be added; that would make sense.

That kind of way to go about it sounds good in theory, but could quickly unbalance that part of the game, especially if any amount high up there ends up being 0%. That is almost like giving you money for saving, and not for anything else. There is no restriction, although I do admit it sounds well, but think it should never reach 0% so that there is some loss still. Not fond of this kind of system as that makes it only the rich get rich while the poor just can't save in the same way. Not that it is difficult in getting pixels, it is just a comparison... And my own thoughts obviously on that one.

 

Totally agree. And as somebody who plays on a server (one which will be PvP once that's in), I use the refinery to make voxel blocks like it's going out of style. Sure, I guess you could just use your ore and refine when needed, but that doesn't help with any of the pixels you've managed to save up outside of refining ore. The cost may seem high, but the fact I always have under 200 pixels to my name means I don't lose much of anything when I die. I've more than made up what I would have lost otherwise. Not to mention changing the penalty would essentially be turning dollars into dimes by devaluing money. As it is now, the man with a stack of 100 10k voxel box is a rich little turd. Takes some work to get.

Also, those voxel blocks are tradable currency in multiplayer server.