Current Armor Penetration Mechanic Vs The New Proposed System

I agree, non-linear gear/sectors/monsters would be great. Personally I don't mind them not being there, but I think they'd just add to the game if they were. As I've stated somewhere before, I love the feeling of vastness Starbound has. Anything to increase it is a plus in my book.

I'm curious though, if you had to choose one, would you choose the armor pen system or the new one? Unless of course you dislike both to equal degrees

 

Oh you know monter hunter, i love you! Continuing on the monster hunter route: Upgrading weapons. Legendary and maybe rare weapons found early in the game should not be made useless as you progress, but should be upgradeable into stronger gear. It's such a waste for an awesome weapon to be usefull for such short ammount of time before having to be thrown away.

 

This. This I how I first expected 'Armor Piercing' to work. It's intuitive. It's exactly what it says on the tin.

Armor piercing should negate armor, not multiply your base damage to obscene amounts. Health and damage values would stay within manageable numbers, and surpassing a monster's armor check means you can compare between weapons that do exactly the damage they say they're going to do.

 

I think we should wait untill the update is out and see what it does. Then we can talk.

 

You're confusing strawman with ad hominem. Strawman is when you misrepresent someone's argument. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

AP could be a great and innovative system if it was refined a bit. No need to overhaul the whole thing.

Which is pretty much you saying as I suspected. You haven't seen the end game. And that is okay, the game is long and huge and it's great! Enjoy it, no really, no sarcasm or anything, enjoy the game. (You want me to take you at your word? You'll take me at mine.)

I'm getting defensive because you're saying that I don't understand the system when you are the one who doesn't understand the system. This was taken directly from the game files:

Code:

{
  // testing only
  "damage" : [ "linear", "clamp", [
      [0,  0,    1,    2,    3,    4,    5,    6,    7,    8,    9,    10,  15,  20,  25,  30,  35,  40,  45    ],
      [0,  [1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.70, 0.60, 0.50, 0.40, 0.30, 0.20, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [1,  [2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.70, 0.60, 0.50, 0.40, 0.30, 0.20, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [2,  [4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.70, 0.60, 0.50, 0.40, 0.30, 0.20, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [3,  [5.50, 4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.70, 0.60, 0.50, 0.40, 0.30, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [4,  [7.00, 5.50, 4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.70, 0.60, 0.50, 0.40, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [5,  [8.50, 7.00, 5.50, 4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.70, 0.60, 0.50, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [6,  [10.0, 8.50, 7.00, 5.50, 4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.70, 0.60, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [7,  [11.5, 10.0, 8.50, 7.00, 5.50, 4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.70, 0.20, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [8,  [13.0, 11.5, 10.0, 8.50, 7.00, 5.50, 4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.80, 0.30, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [9,  [14.5, 13.0, 11.5, 10.0, 8.50, 7.00, 5.50, 4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.90, 0.40, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [10, [16.0, 14.5, 13.0, 11.5, 10.0, 8.50, 7.00, 5.50, 4.00, 2.50, 1.00, 0.50, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [15, [23.5, 22.0, 20.5, 19.0, 17.5, 16.0, 14.5, 13.0, 11.5, 10.0, 8.50, 1.00, 0.50, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [20, [31.0, 29.5, 28.0, 26.5, 25.0, 23.5, 22.0, 20.5, 19.0, 17.5, 16.0, 8.50, 1.00, 0.50, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [25, [38.5, 37.0, 35.5, 34.0, 32.5, 31.0, 29.5, 28.0, 26.5, 25.0, 23.5, 16.0, 8.50, 1.00, 0.50, 0.10, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [30, [46.0, 44.5, 43.0, 41.5, 40.0, 38.5, 37.0, 35.5, 34.0, 32.5, 31.0, 23.5, 16.0, 8.50, 1.00, 0.50, 0.10, 0.10] ],
      [35, [53.5, 52.0, 50.5, 49.0, 47.5, 46.0, 44.5, 43.0, 41.5, 40.0, 38.5, 31.0, 23.5, 16.0, 8.50, 1.00, 0.50, 0.10] ],
      [40, [61.0, 59.5, 58.0, 56.5, 55.0, 53.5, 52.0, 50.5, 49.0, 47.5, 46.0, 38.5, 31.0, 23.5, 16.0, 8.50, 1.00, 0.50] ],
      [45, [68.5, 67.0, 65.5, 64.0, 62.5, 61.0, 59.5, 58.0, 56.5, 55.0, 53.5, 46.0, 38.5, 31.0, 23.5, 16.0, 8.50, 1.00] ]
    ] ]
}

As you can see, using a weapon that's one level lower than your target only results in a 10% damage decrease.

That's something that can be fixed by balancing instead of overhauling the whole system. All that needed to be done was change the higher weapon versus lower armor values to the same as the higher armor versus lower weapon values. Also, now you're using ad hominem.

I looked more into this, and as it turns out, nothing weird is going on. What's happening is that the game calculates damage to the final calculable decimal but reports it as a whole number rounded up. So if you deal 34.6 damage to a creature, it shows you as doing 35 damage but the monsters real HP is 65.4.

You insulted me by misrepresenting my argument, and you make yourself a hypocrite by accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about when you yourself had no idea about the "10% scaling" mechanic.

The new system doesn't solve this problem. Players will STILL be one-shotting monsters and getting one-shot because weapons and HP will need to have very high scalings to increase the game's longevity. Refer to my earlier posts about the dangerous effects of the scaling in the new system. People keep arguing that the AP system is flawed because it's not balanced. In that case, BALANCE changes need to be made instead of a whole system overhaul. It is going to be very difficult and frustrating to find a way to make a satisfactory progression through only 10 tiers, which is the biggest flaw of the new system.

 

Wait, am I reading this thing right? 250% going one level in the opposite direction? That's a bit insane.

 

Yeah, that's the part that needs rebalancing.

 

Are you REALLY arguing that small numbers are better because thousands health monsters have been seen many times before? And they said hipsters use typewriters.
Sure, the new system would still suffer the same problems as the old one, unless they balance it.
So why don't keep the old system? Well because you can't balance a game with 100 levels and 100hp.
Oh wow let's balance this by lowering the armor penetratio- BAM now that thing is underpowered because you divided its power by 10.
That's the same thing DeadlyLuvdisc tried to explain you.
It's like richter scale, you go to the next level, multiply everything by itself level. There will be a point in the game where getting the best armor on a level and going right to the next one won't save you from being oneshotted. And this cannot be balanced with the armor penetration system.

 

Thank you Mianso. You summed it up wonderfully.
Kriptini, I see what you are trying to say I really do but the way you are trying to say it isn't doing your point of view any good.
Attacking me personally doesn't defeat the argument itself which isn't even my argument to begin with, I just happened to agree with that view.

I could re-quote you again and show the flaws in your arguments but that is all it is, a pointless argument. Armor is gone.
I do thank you for showing the data-mined information. It did confirm my beliefs about damage representation and as the developers said ... Well it doesn't need repeating yet again at this point.

Yes armor could have worked and armor penetration could have worked. They may come back in the future to make some monsters feel tougher or as a gating system for end game content who knows. But I welcome any system that removes being god tier in one bracket then a 1 hp wonder immediately upon entering another bracket.

 

I personally enjoy the current system, but I would like to see the other system to get a "taste" of it first before deciding which one is "crap" or not.

They've already made a commit to change it, so wait and see and quit arguing about it so pitifully, my god. If there's enough complaints, they'll change it back - if people like the new one more, then it'll stay as such.

I do wish people would quit whining about the "difficulty" of the game/ "learn" the mechanics, it is a beta and is to be expected, and kids these days really need to learn the enjoyment of something called "accomplishment", because getting everything in the game extraordinarily easy is not accomplishing anything, it's simply being given something. But w/e~

/end my post on this topic.

 

What I see as the greates issue with the current system are the insane thresholds, I can be happily running around on the surface a lvl 25 planet facetanking and oneshotting, but as soon as I go to a lvl 26 planet or just dig down a bit I can hardly dent the monsters' faces and they obliterate me in one swing.

 

I really like the current system aswel. My first few minutes of the game had me pondering what Armor Penetration was for, but once I collected a couple new weapons, the difference quickly became apparent. I grew to love knowing that as long as the AP was same number or higher then the monsters on the planet, then regardless what the Damage stated I knew I would be okay. Out of thousands of Randomly generated monsters of varying levels, Damage alone may of taken at least one whole playthrough to know what I needed for each sector, but with AP it was as simple as making sure my number was higher then that of the enemies level.

I completely agree, that had the tutorial explained the stats of the weapons, there would have been hardly any complaints at all.

 

I suppose I would prefer something in between the proposed system and something a bit different from both. I don't think that content should scale up with rising armor penetration. It's not intuitive to hold armor pen as the primary important value to track; however, the proposed base damage increasing system should also not create a massive disparity between beginning content and end content. I don't like the way that advancement in the game currently revolves around tiers of equipment a la world of warcraft. It makes content that players have access to in the beginning of the trivial later on. The game would be much better served with a content advancement system similar to games like Dark Souls, where certain areas are populated with very dangerous threats that can be traversed right away, but probably shouldn't be until one is properly equipped; also, the beginning content can still be lethal if the player is not smart about it.

 

Agreed. The problem with hunting for gear with the best numbers is that everyone ends of with the same stuff dyed different colors. A system that has gear that allows players to customize a play style by making choices like agility vs. armor vs. certain forms of damage vs. fun tech like jetpacks and flamethrowers would be much more fun than just finding the gear with the best armor rating.

 

No, that is not what I am arguing. The strawmans in this thread really need to stop.

Now I see you have a "holier than thou" attitude. Clearly the discussion has never been about the topic but has been about a problem you have with me. That would explain why you made your first reply to me with such a condescending attitude.

I have not been attacking you personally, I have been showing the problems your arguments have contained (strawmans, ad hominem, contradictions) and you have taken those as personal attacks. There are people who have been able to represent that pro-systems change argument in a proper manner. You are not one of them.

*rolls eyes*

Sounds like you are confusing the need for a systems change with the need for a balance change. Again.

The new system does not solve this problem. Balance changes are the only thing that can solve this problem; having a systems change does nothing to remedy this issue.

 

What is the point of that post? To hurt my feelings? Thanks. If you don't want to have a mature discussion, we don't have to, but you could've done without that post.

 

I don't mind the current stats, but what i do mind are the insanely huge leaps that your character takes from one tier to the next. What i mean by that is that you can get one-shot for having a bit less armor than you should have, and also kill monsters in one hit just for having a bit more armor penetration than is required. Going from complete helplessness to god-mode happens way too fast. When i find new weapons, i only care about the armor penetration for the most part. I only compare the damage and speed of weapons that have the same penetration. If the new system makes it easier for the developers to normalize gear, makes other stats matter more, and also makes them easier to undestand, then i honestly don't see any reason why they shouldn't do it.

 

AP is going and the game will be better for it. a lot of people have made the same concerns be known and apart from a few unique butterflies most of us agree that in it's current form the system doesn't feel right, at all.
I agree with you completely, as do many other players.
Anyone arguing otherwise sure would have a case to make
HP by itself may not totally fix the issue but it will stop the see-saw effect of kill or be killed that is currently going on.

 

Well I'm going to wait until I play with the new system to see if it's better or not . But whatever I suppose.