Current Armor Penetration Mechanic Vs The New Proposed System

From my understanding, all they are doing is removing "armor penetration" and giving those weapons more damage instead.

This means weapons retain their current usefulness, but without misleading labels.
Which does more damage, a 25 dmg sword with armor penetration 1, or a 20 dmg sword with armor penetration 2? Answer isn't clear.
Which does more damage, 25 dmg sword or 30 dmg sword? Answer is easily determined.

And enemies, instead of having more armor, will simply have more health.

This has no effect on the gameplay except making it easier to comprehend. I don't see how anyone could be against this.

 

I agree with everything you posted, word for word.
The AP system was confusing for most of my friends and even though I understood it (this isn't the first game to have had such a system in place) the one-shotting on both sides just felt weird and when you need to explore higher level planets to get higher level gear, being 2-shotted instead of 1 shotted was no less fustrating.

I look forward to the update.

 

The current system is just too dependent on armor/penetration. 1 or 2 levels difference makes the difference between 1 shotting an enemy and slapping it with a wet noodle, and vice versa for enemies attacking you. So if, for example, I'm fighting a level 13 enemy, the only way for the fight to feel balanced is to have level 13 armor and a level 13 weapon. Of course when monsters vary by about 4 levels depending on the time and depth, fair fights rarely happen.

 

It may not change current gameplay but it can change the potential gameplay. Armor penetration can be a very dynamic feature, and when properly balanced/utilized, can have as dynamic of an effect as weapon speed or weapon range. I feel armor pen should not be removed in favor of static damage for the same reason that unique weapon swing arcs should not be removed. It adds a level of weapon variety.

I would agree though that the current system needs improvements, and I think that it can be as simple as making the numbers less impact-ful per point.

 

I'd agree with that statement if, say, one planet had different enemies with different, visible armor statistics.
Perhaps take it further, where specific weapons are weaker against flesh but stronger against armor, or vice versa.

But in its current iteration, it adds nothing to the game that isn't already present.

Either way, I assume they would have to reset our characters regardless of removing the system or just editing it.

 

HP will allow for a more varied enemy experience for sure.
If the current armor pen system were to stay in place, all I would do in every tier is find the highest level Avian trader ship, grab a gun, annihilate the nearest prison colony, and destroy the boss. I would then proceed to find the highest level planet that has the ore I need, cheap shot and cheese every enemy until I find my way underground, mine the ore I need to make the armor I need to not get one shotted and repeat until complete.

 

The answer is clear if one understands the system. Because there is a damage reduction of 10% applied to fighting monsters higher level than your armor pen, the 25 damage sword will do more damage for mobs level 2 and higher. Because there is a damage bonus upwards of 100% for fighting monsters of a level lower than your armor penetration, the 20 damage sword will be a better choice against level 1 enemies. However, many people do not understand this system, so for those lacking the knowledge, the new system will be better for them.

However, the new system has a negative effect on a different type of playstyle. Some players (such as myself) like to be able to calculate how we'll fare against a monster before we engage it. Currently, every normal mob in the game has 100 or 101 HP. If my sword does 20 damage, against a monster with a level equal to my armor penetration, I know that I can kill it in 5-6 hits (depending on whether it has 100 or 101 HP.) If the monster is one level lower than me, I can kill it in half as many swings.

In the new system, Tiy has said that each threat level will feature easy, medium, and hard monsters. For players like me, this means that instead of having to memorize 1 HP value for all normal monsters, we'll have to memorize 30. That's a crazy change. And since weapons will scale up in damage, it'll be more complex to do these kinds of calculations because in order to warrant upgrading weapons every tier, the damage between one tier and the last will need to at least double. Otherwise... why bother upgrading every tier?

So while the new system has its pros, it also has its cons. I personally am not a fan of games where I'm dealing six-digit numbers of damage that are tough to keep up with, which is why I enjoy the current system which is very simple to understand if everyone took the time to do so.

Why do you think that the new changes will make things any different from an experience standpoint? If all the changes are doing are converting the penetration system to equivalent HP/damage increases, you'll still be repeating the exact same process that you are now. What you're talking about are balance changes, not a systems change which is being discussed here.

 

I'm for the changes on AP. The current system is just too frustrating when comparing numbers between levels.

In the new system, there's no reason the weapon's "level" can't be shown so players know where their equipment stands against a planet. I'm also hoping they'll add a way to view monster's stats In the future so the actual numbers can be seen in game (Like clicking the magnifying glass on them).

To be clear, massive values aren't great, but they are a much easier method for comparing loot than the current design. And lower level weapons won't become immediately redundant against weapons one level higher.


Kriptini: I now get where you're coming from in calculating hits-to-kill. Is that your major complaint in losing the AP system? Could visual cues not help this?

 

For starters, in the current system, we already know what a monster's stats are, except for their damage. We know that all normal monsters have 100 HP, and we know that their armor and armor pen are equal to their level. In the new system, lower level weapons will need to become redundant or else the game won't have longevity, because there will only be 10 threat levels instead of 100. In the current system, lower level weapons aren't redundant because they only lose 10% damage per lower level, and the game keeps its longevity because there are 100 threat levels.

Massive values are slightly easier for comparing loot than the current design, but they make it much more difficult to compare how one stacks up against a monster before the engagement... and that's of course assuming you know exactly how much HP an enemy monster has, which is information that I doubt Chucklefish will give us and it'll be harder to memorize it all on our own because we'll need to memorize over 30 HP values instead of just one.

Visual cues could help, of course, as long as they're accessible before the monster is engaged. Perhaps an item could be added like a "monster scanner" that would allow us to scan monsters from a distance and get relevant information about them.

 

This is not true. Not including bosses either. Land creatures have 100hp, flying creatures have 80hp.
Your post only serves to highlight the issues this present system causes. No regular monster has 101hp, only "bosses" and "boss-mooks" have more than 100hp.
See this is why AP needed to go, you need to sit down and put serious hours into the game just to understand something that is fundamental to your own progression. This isn't Civ5, so do we really need overly complex systems in play? It's not fun because those who don't 'get it' cannot ever possibly hope to compete with those who do.

Another side effect of the AP system is guns.
Guns (and other ranged weapons) are useless no matter what tier you find/buy/make them because of the lack of scaling AP and weird damage formula. On a level 40 world a Lv0* pistol for 2 damage with 0 AP is the same as a Lv40 pistol with 2 damage and 0 AP. Why? Because they both do 1 damage.

Your maths would tell you the latter gun says 2 damage and with 40 AP against Lv40 monsters it should do 2 damage but when you play the game and start shooting the local Lv40 monsters, it does 1 damage. Your maths can't explain that.



And why would you want a gun that does 2 damage anyway? Why are they programmed in the game to do 2 damage when against mobs of equal level, under the current system, they would outright kill you long before you shoot them to death anyway.

Unless you have experienced everything in the game so far, saying that the current system (which many people don't understand fully which seems to include yourself) is fine, when it isn't fine is counter-productive to the future of this game.

Now let's all talk about the new pet system shall we.

*Lowest damage in the game at the time of this post, was 1 damage, no matter how much or how little the armor penetration or weapon damage was.

 

I'm just going to throw out my thoughts:

I feel like either I 1HKO everything or they do the same to me. The damage something can do to me vs. the damage I can do to it is off-balanced. Note: I say this as someone who plays with a sword/shield combo. My logic is if I can one-shot the average mob on a planet, chances are they shouldn't be able to do the same. If they can, then the only point to armor right now is to keep yourself warm for cold environments. I'm not going to say anything about the old system vs. the new system until we have a chance to try the new idea, but right now perhaps armor penetration plays too important of a role to the point where it's difficult to find a middle ground in difficulty.

And while we are the subject of combat, please let the weapons that mobs drop have a chance to be viable upgrades? I got a purple sword to drop that looks awesome, but it does little to no damage.

 

I like the armor penetration system better. It makes for a lot more variety in weapons. It sounds like the new system will just be huge health pools for monsters and the rest. I also like the idea of there be 100 levels not just 10. I know its same amount of content but it makes you feel more like you accomplishing something.

I just wore the first boss down I never considered high armor penetration would have been the way to go. I like discovering things as well the change seems to be a dumbing down of the game. It wont ruin it but I like it a bit more complicated.

 

I'll only say this : I prefer an original system that promotes weapon / armor variety rather than a boring linear system. Yes , the current AP system needs some serious tweaking like everyone said in this thread , but it's not a reason to scratch it completly.

Maybe they should combine both the old and new system ; tweak the ap on weapons and armor while adjusting both the monsters HP and players HP. add accessories , or more armor peices that could give more armor / HP / damages to players to help them out. There's actually alot of solutions out there to balance that whole system.

 

"Normal" doesn't include "flying." Your entire post contains similar strawman arguments like this.

Some monsters have effectively 101 HP because of the way the game rounds damage. No monster starts out with 101 HP, but depending on how weird your damage gets, they can have effectively 101.

...it takes all of about a minute to understand the 10% scaling. Stop trying to exaggerate the issue with hyperboles.

Fair enough.

Can you provide proof? I have never seen this happen.

You only think I don't understand the system because you're strawmanning my argument. Reread what I wrote, don't assume I'm stupid, then come back and rejoin the discussion. Thanks.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you. If they do want to make the game different than Terraria, then let us build on a game that is about the immersion and space exploration, not how high we can get our numbers. I like the idea of loot and gathering, having a fun itemization system, as long as it's not purely a "get what ever's best" but more of... use what best fits the situation. Monster Hunter sort of had progression, but it also had you think of what to wear for the occasion, prepare yourself before embarking on an adventure.

I for one see games to go one of three routes: Gameplay, Immersion, or artform. I throw artform in there, because there are games that are just purly about the story and/or graphics and do not act to be otherwise (Asura's Wrath)

When a game tries to go for immersion, it often dulls the game down, by making many things more tedious, but more realistic. Ammunition for example. Alot of games these days fore-go the concept of ammunition in favor of gameplay.
When one goes more for game-play, often does immersion factor disappear. Some games have been successful and blending the two in a decent mix. Skyrim/Obilvion/Fallout 3 in some ways has done with with it's lockpicking (for example) and it made it fun, while still being somewhat immersive as well.

I would like to see Starbound try and aim for a better immersion, without taking too much of gameplay away.

 

I feel the need to re-quote this guy again , who made a very good point on the whole subject. + 1

 

You know, that's exactly what was troubling my friend and I (We've been duo'ing on our own server) regarding weapons becoming obsolete shortly after they are acquired. Hell, we really wanted to get high end assault rifles and after purchasing some from a L25 airship merchant, we found they quickly lost their usefulness in the later threat levels of that tier (but they were phenomenal at one-shotting low level stuff quickly!). Some tweaking definitely needs to be done (as has been discussed); I'm just not sure whether the proposed new system(s) are to fit the bill. I will admit, though, that if I do see mobs / players with xx,xxx+ HP values I will feel a sad.

 

The new system will not address the phenomenon of weapons becoming obsolete a few levels after acquiring them. In fact, it will only EXAGGERATE this issue because there will be less tiers, which means weapons will need to scale up even faster in order to preserve the game's longevity.

 

I think this is significant, specifically regarding weapons becoming obsolete. For this reason I think that weapon attack speeds/swing arcs/ranges should be just as significant as its damage, regarding how things scale. Armor penetration is just another element that could add to a weapon's uniqueness, no different than something with a wide swing or fast attack speed. Increasing difficulty with numbers is really dry. Throwing more HP onto enemies is frustrating. A game should progress by having the player improve on their methods, not just their gear. There's an earlier post that throws around the buzzword Role Customization that I think hit the nail on the head.

This means crunching the numbers and testing. This means going out and practicing with that new weapon a bit to see how it feels. For those who do not like doing that, sorry, but it's good gameplay. Maybe add a weapon level so someone who isn't looking very hard can see at a glance if one weapon is particularly stronger than another.

I think a lot of the issues people are having could be solved by blending a tiers more. I want to call on my experience in Borderlands, where I would find weapons that had slightly stronger numbers but just didn't feel right, and were overall less effective. Then on comes along this omgwtf gun that is very definitely an upgrade. I did not enjoy Borderlands that much (too much dps) but I felt like it was very clear if I knew something was stronger than something else. I feel Starbound can borrow heavily from that concept of weapon quirkiness and come out really nice.

 

Wikipedia will tell you what a strawman argument is. I wasn't attacking you or your views, just stating some facts and a different opinion.
Also why even argue the schematics of "normal" vs "flying"? Are they not both trying to kill you? Because I think they are.
AP is going, sorry you are sad to see it go. The rest of us will not miss it or its flaws.

In response to this I will quote you and say, "can you provide proof?" since "I have never seen this happen".

That you not only don't understand but also failed to explain "10% scaling" here leads me to say; I'm not picking on you here, this is the internet not a personal 'let's attack you' thing and I don't get why you are so defensive, to the point of absurdity. Their is no 10% scaling and for you to say that there is means you haven't seen the final sectors or the stuff that goes on in current end game.

The current AP system is broken! Being 1 shotted was a detriment to the game. Your new gear being obsolete in the space of mere minutes is a huge issue! And before you say "hyperbole" again even the developers have admitted it was problematic and it's their game! If anything you just refuse to budge on a issue because it seems that "you" like it so stuff everyone else who doesn't like it or 'understand it'.

Which is pretty much you saying as I suspected. You haven't seen the end game. And that is okay, the game is long and huge and it's great! Enjoy it, no really, no sarcasm or anything, enjoy the game. I got to the end and people like me who have also made it that far can say and show you the same or similar to what I have said. Some weapons did not scale like they should have, period. As a result of armor and the damage formula, which you have indirectly commented on

is the point everyone is trying to make, AP caused weird things to happen that probably shouldn't have happened. The idea behind it was sound but ideas sometimes don't pan out. That is the very nature of the beast of making (video)games.

Finally this gem.

I never assumed you were stupid, I never called you stupid, I never even implied you were stupid. Either you are projecting or you are angry and just venting. It's cool, it happens. I'm not mad at you. I read what you had to say, re-reading it revealed nothing new either. I also wasn't aware I had "left" the discussion but I get the feeling you don't want to talk about the new pets then.

AP is gone, at least for now. It may get reimplemented in a better form or it may not. Being unique is not a reason to keep something that is under-performing. They could have tweaked AP but and I mean this with the best of intentions when I say it so don't be offended, the system was broken at it's core because changing a number here or there would not fix the problem. Players could 1 shot monsters as well and that doesn't feel right either. Yes it should happen but at the end of the curve (the end game as it were) not as soon as it happened under the AP system.

I am glad to see the AP system go and I eagerly await the HP system. If that doesn't pan out, I look forward to what system comes next after that. Because that is the nature of the beast, making a game that "feels" right.

Thank you for your time, enjoy the day.
(neither of those 2 videos belong to me, just so their is no confusion)