Important BETA RELEASE DISCUSSION - DECEMBER 4TH (*ALL* beta discussion goes here. Other threads deleted)

you do release you just insulted him?

 

I'm fairly certain he meant RECENT news. Not some ancient stuff -.-

 

I think we can all agree that the last game "of this scope" was Terraria, which was still a bit "smaller" than this, at least in the fact that it wasn't running "Multiple worlds".

So, lets see:

Terraria, was in development for 4 months before release, with a team of 3, only one of which was a programming/designer. There was then an additional 8ish months of "updates" and additional development, with the exception of some small bugfixes and the recent "big" update, which is set to be the "final", with the exception of a "possible" Halloween update.

It was, however, done in a higher level programming language (XNA (C#), opposed to c++). While XNA is "more difficult" to learn than c++, it's much easier to actually use and implement for game design purposes (hence, it's pretty much "THE" goto language when people make games now). In fact, C++ is fairly difficult to use for game programming, but this is offset by it's incredible simple nature, and the fact that it's pretty must the main starting language for programmers to learn nowadays (mainly because the syntax carries over to just about every other language, excluding action-script and java).

Terraria was completely funded by the original developer, however, there was no public information (to my knowledge) on how much money they had to work with. But, considering the fact that it was 3 people, only one of which was developing (and at that, it was a "pleasure project" from my understanding), I'd say it's a good estimate to say that they had less than 10% of the funding this game has, at the most.


So, for a game "of this scope", or at least, as close as something that exists, we have a "very rough" estimate of development cost+time:

3 people
4 months to release, 8 months updates post-release before development "stopped", 20 months for the final "no more updates ever" update (can't be 100% confirmed, becuase they never said they were working on it during this time or how long, so I gave a benefit of the doubt estimate) = Entire life of project from Start to release/end of development: 4 months Release, 28 months additional development = 32 Months total development. But remember, more than 80% of development, was AFTER release.
<$200,000 in itial

This. is what worries me. 1 person, did a game of a similar enough to be comparable scope, in FAR less time with far less money than Starbound, and he worked with set release dates nearly the entire time, while working another job.

I understand, that he might be an exception in the industry, and that the situation isn't 100% the same (the use of a c++ by itself should add months onto development opposed to XNA as everything is coded at a "lower level").



So, while some people here might not know how long it takes to make a game like this, there are also people here who do know, and see the "strangeness" of not having a release date when other indie developers would sell their souls for the amount of money and publicity Starbound has. So, why no release date? I don't think it's unrealistic to ask for a release date that isn't "When they decide to release it" or "It's done when it's done".

 

July 5th, 2013. 3 months. Ancient.

I feel so old right now.

...

I do have a question for everyone though. If you could choose what day of the week beta came out on, what would you pick? Personally, I'd love a Sunday release : )

 

i said it before and i'll say it again if we get a confirmed beta release date ill



FOR a Week.

 

That is far too long to be doing the dance. You should be spending that time playing this wonderful game!

 

No, Terraria's scope was not anywhere near this when it released. Two years later it's still not on the same playing field. I love Terraria, and its content has grown considerably in the past couple years, but it's just not as ambitious a project.

 

I pretty much agree with every facet of it, and would like to add:

These are /not/ first timers working out of a garage. Most have previous experience coding and spriting.
The team totals well over fifteen people but only includes three dedicated coders. There is cross-work going on, but still.
Lastly despite what Tiy said this is not new technology.. unless you want to claim every variant car is new technology.

I could go on. They have the resources and know how. With so little time left if they can't make a call now I think it isn't just out of fear of community backlash as some would say. I honestly feel there is a serious failure to plan and organize going on internally.

Remember: Multiple small and large game companies are able to do this. They need to get back on the horse after falling off.
Otherwise people will know Chucklefish as a producer and development team that is unreliable.

 

Kyle: Your petty insults do not increase the accuracy of your statements neither does your claim to be a "in the field". None of what you said even reaonsably marks it as future vaporware. My points still stand. Also while betas are not specifically for preview that doesn't in anyway negate my points. Also taking into account betas have been used as previews to attract players only further supports it. Games advertise open betas for example to attract a player base in the first place so yes betas get used as preview or intro to the game all the time.

The beta being the first hands on experience a very large number of people will have the game will colour a lot of opinions. Yes a good first impression is rather important and has been demonstrated since long before video games were a thing. Bad first impressions hurt future sales.

Aphosis: Interesting estimate but something to remember. The two games only have a few comparable qualities on the surface. They are 2d side scrolling, action/adventure/exploration, "voxel based", building, and resource gathering games.

When terraria first came out it was a very very simple game with only a fraction of the content it has now. It took the creator nearly 3 years to put in the amount of content it has now. This has been one it's chief complaints was it was too simple and the aforementioned drop off of course.

By comparison Starbound is already more complex in several ways then Terraria. It has only been in development for not quite two years and with what they have now is quite complex compared to terraria. AI behaviours alone are more complex then anything terraria has for both monsters and villagers. There is simply more in the guts of Starbound then there is Terraria.

 

Sh***'s gettin' heated

*grabs popcorn*

 

It's close enough to allow a comparison.

I never said that, because Terraria took X amount of time, Starbound should take less. I know that Starbound is going to be bigger, and is a more complicated undertaking.

My example, is that we can use Terraria as an estimate, because a majority of the concepts and ideas are not all brand spanking new never-been-done ideas. Procedurally generated terrain/planets, building, crafting, this has ALL been done before, we know what works, and what doesn't. So, it's a simple task for a game designer to pick and design the system for crafting and have it coded (which, sounds WAY simpler than it is). I acknowledge that these things take time, but it's VERY easy to estimate how long it would take to figure our and program these things.

For example, if I wanted to make a crafting system from scratch using C++, I'd say it would take me about a week to get the basics flowcharted out and programmed in. From there, maybe another week tops to get it to recognize what recipies make what. And that's if I was doing every part of it by myself, without other programmers, working for 8 hours a day.

My point, is that there is not really an excuse for them to not have a release date, especially given that they have a much larger team and more funding. Yes, I know the default responses are "They don't want to have a date and miss it, then have everyone unhappy", "It's done when it's done", or "It's up to them when they want to release it", but the problem is that, from my point of view, there is no liability or anything FORCING them to actually WORK on the project. The money that is "donated" technically doesn't purchase anything except the promise of a steam key in the future (or any other bonus you received) and there is no liability or legally binding agreement that says they have to actually work on the game or do anything besides take the money and run. There is no legal precedent to get your money back if they decide to not release.

And that it what truly worries me about this. Because the concept and ideas behind this are amazing, but there is no guarantee.. The demo could as easily be a GameMaker prototype quickly thrown together to run just long enough under specifically controlled conditions as it could be the actual game. I mean, their original stretch goal was $1million for a 2013 release, and they have DOUBLE that. How will it speak for their future reputation if they can't hit their "vague" release date with double their wanted capital?

 

​

 

Terraria is similar in style, not scope. What the devs have demonstrated in videos is already far beyond the scope of Terraria.

If you are familiar with Terraria, it has about 300 kinds of NPCs (including enemies, critters, and allies), most of which have very sparse animation; about 1700 items, including item versions of all blocks and crafting materials; a world map limited to 8400x2400 blocks, with no support at all for unlimited worlds; very limited friendly and neutral NPCs (mostly just glorified shopkeepers that magically appear on your doorstep when you defeat the right enemy); no vehicles; terrible performance for what it does (the woes of C#, which tends to be FAR slower than well coded C++); little actual character progression (just getting and using mana and life crystals to increase those stats); no races; etc.

Terraria is not a bad game, but comparing it with Starbound, as far as the scope goes, is like comparing the first Zelda with Skyward Sword.

 

A more apt analogy is Skyward Sword with Ocarina of Time.

 

Then he'll

in game.

 

But as I said just a couple of posts ago, they are not experienced as a team. That makes all the difference. It's very difficult to judge how well a team will work, regardless of how experienced the members of the team are.

So again you're saying that they are lying? Molly has said that they don't want to give another date which might be wrong.

Multiple companies are forced to by publishers. I'm not aware of many indies which give release dates which they stick to.

Beta this year should be enough, shouldn't it? Why do you care when the full release is, if we have beta? Once we have beta, then go for your life speculating how long it should take them to fix/polish everything to release quality - I'm sure you will anyway. It really does amaze me how many people in this thread think that they know better than the devs on so many issues.

Edit: In fact, let's do that. When you've got the beta, you know how much more there is to do. You know how the devs work from the various streams. You've got the daily updates as well to know how much they can do in a day. You're in almost as good a position as anyone actually on the CF team to estimate how much more time development will take. Go on, take a stab. Let's see how far out you are.

 

And see, this post and all who liked it: You all make a community worse condoning that kind of comment, not better. Constructive criticism met with that comment means you are worse than what you hate. Truth hurts.

 

So you are saying nobody /but/ Chucklefish can understand the trails of coding or game making?

Let me clarify also:

I don't think it is the /only/ reason, Calris. Not that they outright lied about that subject.
There are things they would simply never tell us about development. Period.

Edit: If they would let me see all the content they have? I would be willing to. The difference and reason it hangs on Chucklefish is they HAVE all the information including that kept from the public. Since it isn't likely they would give it to me, I can't. You'll of course say this somehow absolves them when they DO have even what is kept back from us.

Quite frankly it isn't my responsibility, but it is Chucklefish's if they want a good reputation of being reliable. If not.. Well I think that is a mistake. Just an opinion, but I'm not the only one to hold it.

 

This arguing in no way brings us closer to the release date, or even an understanding of anything worth understanding.

Please cease this inane bickering so we can possibly go back to the folks who leave 3 sentences about how excited they are for the game to come out. At least those dont give the mods headaches. Poor things.