Important BETA RELEASE DISCUSSION - DECEMBER 4TH (*ALL* beta discussion goes here. Other threads deleted)

WARNING: Deep thoughts in this sector

 

Just for the record, I wasn't talking about what Paco was arguing for. And it wasn't really my intention to argue that we didn't purchase the game. >_>

I actually forgot about the soundtrack, that could be used as a good reason to preorder the pixel tier at least. However, I still stand by my previous statement; CF would have to have one heck of a marketing team to convince someone that a virtual hat which could be modded in pretty much for free is worth $500 for example. It would be a stretch to suggest that "your purchase will go directly towards development" wasn't even considered as a part of it, especially after the whole "why fans are upset" thread happening.

That is really the question that needs to be asked.

What I'm seeing right now is a repeat of what happened two months ago. Community gets in a huff over nothing, and starts airing, well, pretty much everything they can think of. The last time this happened, we ended up with what, 18 questions? And apparently a suggestion got thrown in there for good measure.

Of the current list, I only see value in #13 and only because people are panicking over nothing. The rest have already been answered somewhere(or stated to not have an answer yet), and/or they're really not something we need to know right now.

Edit: It might be worth going over this and similar threads, for reference.

 

Woah, I never said you didn't purchase the game. You did buy the game, early access to beta and funding development (in reverse order of course). My point is folks are completely unaware of that fact. I understand the now generation, just step back and read what your buying.

Paco <--- for Hazmat

 

Oh come on, now you're just being silly, hahaha.

 

What I'm saying is, the mode whereby money and digital goods are exchanged via the pre-order is a purchase, this is clearly stated on the page, purchasing something is different from funding something. As I stated (and you ignored) what is done or promised to be done with the money after the purchase is irrelevant to the fact that it is a purchase. Also irrelevant to the fact that it is a purchase is the intent with which the purchase is made, I do not at all deny that people purchasing Starbound (especially the higher tires) do this with the intent of funding development but this does not alter the fact that they are making a purchase.

To summarize and address your Call of Duty analogy, Someone purchases one of the tiers of Starbound from the preorder page and the money from this purchase is used by the Devs to aid in the development of the game. This is not funding, this is a purchase and the money made from that purchase being put to use, regardless of any intentions. And the reason the tier rewards we see on the preorder page have no equivalent in CoD is because no sane consumer would pay what it costs to implement anything from Platinum Tier up and no sane AAA developer would spend the time implementing anything from Gold Tier and up. Your analogy is fallacious because this type of tier-system simply can't be practically applied in AAA development.

 

Features=/=Content
Features include anything that defines the game.

The Ability to Mine the world around you.
The Ability to Craft items of the stuff you mine.
The Ability to Travel through space to other celestial objects.
Fighting Monsters/Bosses
Quests
Party Chat
Multiplayer

Content==Features
Content includes anything that completes a feature

A Pickaxe - An item you can use to mine the world around you. This item completes that Feature. Regardless of how many different types of Pickaxes you have, with just one you have completed that feature. Adding more Pickaxes just means you have expanded on the content, not the feature. If you couldn't mine the world around you, then it would be Feature-Incomplete.

Crafting Armor/Weapons - Again, once you are able to Craft something from what you mined, that is now feature completed. Just because you can mine "better materials" and craft "Better Armor and Weapons" does not mean that those additional arms and armors are Features, they are content. If the game didn't allow you to craft something out of the stuff you mined, then it would be Feature-Incomplete.

Space Travel - Even if you are limited to just your initial Starting Solar-System, the ability to leave your Starting Planet and travel to another Planet fulfills this Feature. Making it possible to leave you solar system and travel to others could be argued as a Feature, but on the basic level of being able to travel through Space to a different Planet, makes this Feature Complete. If you couldn't travel through space, even within your Starting Solar System, would make this Feature-Incomplete.

Combat - Again, even if the only thing you run into is a handful of different enemies, its still fulfilling this feature. Even if you super-impose one of each of those monsters, and give it more health, damage, and armor/resistance and call it a boss. You have still fulfilled this Feature. By adding more and more Monsters and Bosses you are merely adding content to the package. Its already Feature-Complete. You are just ensuring that every new enemy makes for a unique experience. I do not say that this is a bad thing in any way and encourage the idea of having more than "Goombas, Turtles, and Bowser" but the point is that if all you have are just Goombas, Turtles, and Bowser; it's still Feature-Complete

Quests - even if the only Quest you have available to you shows you how to mine the world around you, the fact that you have some sort of method to talk to the player and inform them how to do something, with objectives; fulfills this Feature. Because it is nice to see enough Quests to get the Basics done, like a Tutorial Quest-line would be highly frowned upon if it did not. The game would still be Feature Complete because you have something that fulfills that niche. Now it could be argued that a "Tutorial" could be a Feature by itself. If the Tutorial is like the Terraria tutorial for the consoles, or if its a "Mandatory Starting Quest Set" as part of the main game is all on how the Dev's want to implement it. In either case, Having Tutorial set up in a fashion of progressive, objective-based Quests would fulfill both of those potential Features. By not implementing either and just dropping you off in the middle of the of nowhere with no guidance on what to do or how to play; makes this Feature-Incomplete.

Party Chat and Multiplayer - You could argue that you can't have one without the other. I say you can. Here's a perfect example: Super Mario Bros (NES). The game is Multiplayer (1-2 players) and does not include a Party Chat system. Why? Because the game is Multiplayer on a Local-Level. Meaning both players must be in the same room, using the same console, using the same television to play the game in a multiplayer Setting. Is this situation advisable for PC Gameplay? No. But it's an example of how you can have Multiplayer without Party Chat. Now, how about Party Chat without Multiplayer? If they had a party window that worked like iirc, it would work. You and your friends could all be in the same iirc chat room, that is displayed and able to be interacted with in-game. This would serve as a "Chat-System" allowing you to converse with other players, but not allowing you to interact with them in game.
So if they make it so you have to do some port forwarding or use a VPN program like Hamachi, so that it turns your computer into the Hosting Server, and this allows whoever you give your IP Address to, to allow them to connect to your computer and gets them into your game. That fulfills the Multiplayer Feature. Or if they purchase a set of 3rd-Party Servers to host the multiplayer portion of the game, that everyone connects to and can interact with everyone around the world, that also fulfills the Multiplayer Feature. Having some sort of text-based chat system, whether it be like an iirc room-based text chat, or some other similar way to communicate; it fulfills that Feature.

My point is that adding more monsters/bosses is additional content, not a feature. Content and Features are different. This is why I am asking the questions I proposed on the list. I believe the Dev's have lost sight of the difference between the two, and am trying to open their eyes and help them understand this.
Feature-Complete =/= Content-Complete
Making the Beta Feature-Complete, is great.
Making the Beta Content-Complete, makes it the Full-Release. not a Beta.

It may be possible that the Dev's have "tunnel-visioned" on the Content thinking it to be features, and feel like there's way too many "Monsters and Bosses" that need to be added to the game, when in reality this portion of the game is already Feature-Complete. That they could be spending there time working on getting a working Chat-System or hashing out Multiplayer. Two features we have had absolutely no word on how its coming along, and if they aren't going to release the beta until its "Feature-Complete". Then I feel they should be working on the Features and not the Content.

Am I arguing that I don't want Content? No. Making more content for the game is always a Good Thing. look at World-Of-Warcraft. If all you do is buy the Basic Game, it is Feature-Complete. The Basic Game by itself is also Content-Complete. But Blizzard added additional content to the game in the form of DLC's. You can't enjoy "The Full Gaming experience" without acquiring all the different DLC, but all the DLC's are, is just additional content, not Features. With the basic Game you could already choose Horde or Alliance. You could already choose from a set of races and then a class, questing, raiding, everything that they intended to be part of the game.
so, yes. I encourage adding content...however!

The Dev's have set a deadline for themselves for the Beta, and have said that the beta will not be released until it is Feature-Complete. That Deadline is approaching very fast, and to help save their PR, they may need to take a step back and look at what they are working on and figure out if what they are working on is Content, or a Feature.

 

Sorry, those were meant to be separate statements. Let me edit that.

If you look at the actual definition of a Beta, it actually is supposed to be content-complete. >_>

In practice that hardly ever happens though. Not with games anyway.

Regardless, the beta should have everything in it up to however many tiers have been implemented. That means all of the low-tier features, and content is actually pretty easy to add in this game anyway.

 

Mind giving a source for that definition?

 

I'm thinking he was thinking the "Software release life cycle" page on wikipedia, but that says feature complete as well.

 

Yo guys, stop arguing for nothing!
Make peace beacuse whatever we say here the devs don't give a .
I used to be on these forums every day but i got sick of irelevant almost daily updates... also sick of paid or unpaid worshippers, that attack all the ,,unpleasant comments" like somebody is aiming for a conspiracy against the devs.

I mean ... Yo Tiy! What the hell do you need to finish on this game untill you can announce when the beta is gonna be ready? Is it really that hard? Are you really developing this game? WTF?
Is there ever going to be a beta?... or release???
Don't get me wrong, i love Starbound, but man... this is taking too much... this sucks

 

Maybe past ones? After all in the past, content couldn't be extended like now. Now it can easily far more reliably then even expansionpacks and other means allowed. Now it makes more sense to use the word feature.

The general point that they are seem off track when it comes to priorities about beta.. and its skunking their pr.. remains. I raised kind of the same concerns a bit back.

Edit: Changed the wording abit, don't want to make it sound like Im talking for someone. My bad.

 

i think were still here as we believe there's still a glimmer of hope and i hope things will get resolved before there is an army of angry fans wanting blood.

 

I keep seeing this argument about features versus content, and many of you are right, features=/= content. Let me give a few examples from other games.
In Terraria hostile mobs are a feature, Eskimo Zombies are content, In Minecraft mining is a feature, Emeralds are content.
Now to the actual point here, you know what else is a feature of Terraria? Regenerating health. You know what Terraria didn't have on release? Regenerating health. Minecraft didn't have a hunger system or tamable and breedable mobs for most of beta. The idea that all features must be in place for a beta is wrong. Many beta products don't have all the features in place yet. When we have examples of successful games that didn't have all features in place at release, the idea that it's necessary to have them all for Beta is a bit crazy.
Now don't take this to mean I want a beta before features are in place, I don't. Testing is far harder when features change as you go, but stop tossing out this idea that it's needed. Feature completion is NOT a requirement for Beta. It's just makes Beta less of a headache for those of us who actually enjoy the testing part of them.

 

Though I agree with Skarn, in this case, their point is moot. Starbound's BETA will be released only with the first 3 of 10 (11) tiers of game play. That said, the dev's aren't going to release an unfinished and unpolished game in BETA form or any other. Source.

 

Skarn: Good Catch I forgot to change that over. I will tweak that one later.

 

and less than 24 hours later tiy said he wanted to add as many tiers as possible to beta. i would link it but the post it was in as been deleted.

 

That's the first I've heard of that.. Oh well.

 

Nah, it still exists here. It's a shame, I thought 3 was a good number for a beta myself.

 

To be honest to test all the core concepts all they needed was one. Maybe Two.

People are reasonably playing and building in the so called "alpha" now.. frankly it has looked beta ready (definitions aside as beta is very flexable wordwise) to actually begin testing things for months now. That I49 "demo" alone proved the game was in a beta testable state for a lot of people regardless of how much was "turned off"... but maybe the answers to these questions will help explain it better.

 

I actually didn't know that they nixed the 3 tiers thing. That actually makes me feel better about the long delay from what I thought would have been ready earlier this month, and to be honest I'd rather have the most amount of Tiers just because from what I've seen the equipment starts getting interesting past tier 3. But in my mind I'm imagining tier 3 being like silver/gold ore in Terraria (which is purely speculation on my part)