Important BETA RELEASE DISCUSSION - DECEMBER 4TH (*ALL* beta discussion goes here. Other threads deleted)

Figured i would post an interesting read @icculus (The guy known for porting games to Linux) Tweeted. Seems relevant, it is a long read but I found it quite enlightening. Enjoy.

A CONVERSATION ABOUT KICKSTARTER
Lots of stuff has been going on in the Kickstarter community lately. I'm sure many of you have noticed Double Fine's announcement about splitting up their game into two parts. They've gotten some serious heat for this. Backers of Shadowrun have heard similar things about the content in that game, with the DLC being released much later.

First of all, I want to be clear that we do not intend to do something like this for The Banner Saga. When it releases it will be a complete product. We don't have plans for DLC at this time, and we will continue to support the multiplayer component. We also intend to continue on the sequels (chapter 2 and 3) just as planned.

I would also like to talk about my personal opinion on this, and I'd love to be open and talk like a normal person instead of a PR person in damage control mode. Can we do this? Without freaking out? You can disagree with me of course, just be nice about it.

This is hard. Like, way WAY hard. When we pitched the game we were hoping for enough money to get extra animations, maybe increase the length of the game. We thought we'd get, like, 2000 backers, not 20,000. A fine problem to have, right? Haha! Except that it's actually a huge problem. The hardest problem I've ever dealt with in my life. Now I know.

We thought now we could do everything we ever wanted for the game, and got too ambitious. We thought we could make the game in six months, and I'm still not sure what we were thinking. That was stupid. I wish I could take that back, all we needed to do was put a different date there and nobody would be complaining. Whoops. We ARE still doing everything we want, and it's taking a long time. I don't feel bad about that. That was the POINT, right? To dream as big as we could?

It's interesting to think of it from someone else's point of view. For many people, letting a dev shoot for the moon is NOT the point. For a lot of people the point is I BOUGHT A GAME, WHERE IS IT? They want the biggest, best game ever made, on time, for their $10 contribution. I can see that, too. I don't really agree... but I suppose it's a matter of perspective.

If nothing else, I think the gaming community is finally getting a good picture about real game development. What would really shock people is that there is nothing unusual about any of this, except that you are finally seeing it. This is every game development story that has ever existed, except instead of the publisher dealing with it, YOU are.

Budgets of 1 to 4 million are small-to-medium sized. Our budget of $650k (in actual funding) is relatively small, half a year of production for a small team. Budgets of kickstarter projects asking for $20k... that's not enough to make a game, that's just some content. Surprise! Games you've come to expect as "standard" like Call of Duty: maybe 150 million to make, rough guess. You know how much Old Republic cost? I'm not legally allowed to tell you, actually. It's that much. Now you know.

Games take 1 year to make... if it's a casual iOS game, or an annual sequel. Medium sized games take 2-3 years. Large games take 4-5 years. Believe it or not, lots of games fall in a nebulous space between AAA and "indie", whatever that means. The Old Republic took over 6 years. Yeah, you started hearing about it 1 year before it released. It started production five years before that. For five years hundreds of people toiled on it 12 hours a day and you had no idea! Now you know! Isn't knowing about production right from the start wonderful? No, it's not. It's annoying. It takes FOREVER. That's why you usually don't hear anything until it's almost ready to ship.

Delays, content cuts, pushed back dates, plans to make revenue sooner- this is how games are developed. Bioshock Infinite, the biggest game of 2013, got delayed for half a year, AFTER pre-orders were sold. Journey took 3 years to make a 3 hour game and had to go back for more funding from Sony TWICE. That's how game development goes. They didn't know they'd need to do it. Humans are not good at estimating creative endeavors, no matter how "professional" they are.

We released a truly free demo hoping to make some extra cash for development, and got brutalized for it. But without that income and development time our single-player game wouldn't be as good. Some people will never understand this.

I've worked in games for about a decade. Some companies I worked for had their stuff together better than others. Some were a huge, hundred-million dollar, extremely delayed nightmares. Every company had delays and went over-budget. You know what a release date is? A guess. We're just guessing.

Essentially, I hope people don't freak out too much about what's happening with Kickstarter right now. It's not deceitful or underhanded. It's not a conspiracy. It's normal stuff, whether you like it or not. If Broken Age wasn't a Kickstarter game the first time you would have heard about it would be a couple months from ship, and that it was a two-part adventure game. And you would have been fine with that.

Our game is coming along better than I could have imagined, even if delayed. BECAUSE it's delayed. I'm super happy with it. Other companies have way bigger problems, but that's game development. NOW YOU KNOW. I sincerely hope everything works out the best for them, and you should too. At the end of the day, they're nice guys trying to make good entertainment for you. I, personally, will cut them all the slack in the world.

So there you have it. The games industry! The aristocrats! Maybe it'll get better someday? For now, let's enjoy our time together! (I love you).

-Alex

Source: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga/posts/529873 under the part "A CONVERSATION ABOUT KICKSTARTER".

 

Previews and hands on BETA are two different things, so naturally the release of one should not affect the other

 

Now; we all want a beta release date, don't deny that. But the devs don't want to do it for various reasons, that's fine, but what if I told you we could release an accurate measure of beta release while still conforming to the dev's rules on it?

It's simple in theory, there are two or three things that the devs can do that don't spoil the game, nor allow for an inaccurate measure of beta. There are two steps.

Step One - The To-Do list.

The devs have a secret to-do list of everything they need for beta. Tiy has confirmed this here:

He also has sadly said he will not release it because of it's spoilery nature. To which I give a simple solution. Give us a Redacted To-Do list, everything we aren't supposed to know because of spoilers, tiy can instead just give us a [REDACTED] line. This will give us a very good gauge of how much they want to get done, and let us see how fast they are to completion each day by following the daily updates

Step Two - The Roadmap

Now, we all know the roadmap isn't an accurate beta measurement tool because it measures the FULL RELEASE

What I suggest is that the devs add another criteria to the progress bars, a beta gauge. It'll just be a small graphic under each bar pointing to a specific segment, showing the amount the devs think that system will need to be done for beta release. This is spoiler free too.

Both of these suggestions will give us a clearer picture on beta release and quell whining. It's a win-win.

 

I think that these are all decent suggestions but I also do not think it is needed. IMO they post and interact with the community enough - any more is excessive. I don't mind not knowing a few things if it keeps those developers that be from getting distracted from the main overall goal. "Eyes on the prize Violet."

 

I like the idea, but the to-do list thing is already established, some revealed in the daily news.
The REDACTED part, depending on how they do it, is either going to give us an idea thus a mini spoiler OR so secretive that we will be even more excited.
The [REDACTED] part though, just an assumption but. SCP?

 

I guess kinda like Endless Space did.

 

I'd support just about anything that gave us a clue when to expect the game at this point, although I think that having them update the roadmap or a todo list is probably a waste of time since that requires them taking resources away from the game and actually paying attention to the roadmap/todo list.

There's a reason the roadmap has gone pretty much ignored up to now.

 

Yes, but it is your opinion.

I, on the other hand, would appreciate more certain date. I don't like waiting without knowing how long I have to wait.
It's like hanging out in front of an concert before it's begun. I never do that. I pre-order tickets and go there exactly when the gates open.

 

That's why I wrote it.

 

Beware this is 100% just personal opinion. Figure it goes here despite being spurred by daily updates, and a bit by linkthegamers post.

With all the talk of finalizing the internal to do list, tweaking variables and meshing systems together more then creating them, and general talk that seems to hint at them getting far closer every time..

I honestly am starting to feel for those who ask for a more firm beta release date. Just because now, unlike many times before, it seems like they would have a much much better idea of when that is. I'm not talking the exact day either although them stating and meeting it would be nice. I'm pretty sure they can see the finish line by now and could give us a general idea how much work is left. I don't think its too unreasonable when there is only five and a half months left to give people a little more of a heads up. Its true estimating a creative endeavor is hard to judge - but not impossible. I think the team is intelligent and perfectly capable of doing so once they have a firm idea themselves.

So I'm hoping soon we might get a better idea as well, as they seem to imply they are hashing out some of the final things left to do. I know some large things remain like random quests and npc interaction and unstated things. Yet the team always speaks as if things are moving toward the last stages and its sooner rather then later. If not, then this post is mostly meaningless and I acknowledge that. Regardless, I hope the developers would be willing to give some kind of refined idea as soon they can see the end goal themselves.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Well.. this thread merger was elegant and seamless.

 

Not again, WHY?!
Knowing the beta release date is pointless.
Why should the devs give out any of their ideas? Because pepole can't handle their hype?
What's next? Devs bring us breakfast?
http://community.playstarbound.com/...e-date-of-the-beta-read-before-posting.25665/

 

Even easier: just say (before) Dec 31 2013

 

I know one good reason why - so we can book our leave with work (where applicable).
But many of us understand your frustration, this question has been asked so many times.

 

Why dont we just push, the city, TO ANOTHER PLACE.

 

And also, why doesnt someone make a petition on change.org to ask for the number of tasks on the todolist.

 

Wow, I really like your idea, it's well thought and [REDACTED]
[Hirakhos terminated for heresy by order of the Inquisition High Magistrate]

 

Mehh, from the roadmap you can calculate the games 75% complete. Not long now guys probably sometime in September!

 

Well, seeing as the world first demonstration of starbound will be at Invasion 49 which is held at the end of august, we know for sure that the beta release won't be at last until september.