[Beta feedback] What it means to have a dodging-based combat system

I don't know what the Dev's intentions for Starbound's combat system are, but at the moment I feel we could call it a "Dodging based" combat system. Since this is Beta I would like to offer useful feedback and share with you the opinion I have about this system.

First of all, it is indeed true that in most games dodging the enemy's attacks is a crucial maneuver in order to stay alive, yet in some games dodging has a greater importance than in others. A perfect example for this is Demon's souls or Dark souls, where a simple hit can cost your life and pressure is put upon the player to avoid any single enemy attack.

Fortunately the extent and degree of the dodging can be balanced, which also means that the game's enemies don't need to be merciless 1-shot killers, but still at the moment I have the feeling that dodging is becoming one of the most important aspects in Starbound combat in contraposition to a "Tanking" system which emphasizes more the development of armor and the amonut of hits you can take.

Personally I am in favour of a dodging focused system. And here are the reasons why:

- Dodging rewards skillful players and increases the importance of terrain.
- Dodging makes battles more dynamic and more diverse.
- Dodging allows different enemies to have different attacks, forcing the player to react in different ways and look for new strategies.
- Dodging gives me the feeling that even with the current armor I'm still vulnerable and there is always a challenge.
- Dodging penalizes players who are careless and it rewards teamwork (big aspect in multiplayer).
- Dodging enhances the exploration and survival feeling of the game.
- And finally, dodging can be fine-tuned and balanced in order to provide a satisfying experience suited to all player's skill level and desired difficulty.

What about you? Are you a dodger or a tanker?

 

The blow not taken is better than the one mitigated.

However, that being said, a dodging system tends to have something in place to support such a system. Starbound does not have that per say (though you could get that dash skill) and the issue with this is that it does not do all the things you said. It simply rewards the person with better range and ease of hitting. This could benefit a gun or a large sword with a wide arc and speed.

-Skill is great, but here you don't have a specific way to move out of the way, only some cheese strategies.
-You need to be able to take a hit to make combat feel right. As it stands I feel like you either one shot or you are one shotted. (simplified summary)
-You don't have a dodge key, so different reactions don't amount to much. Either I run and hop over things, or approach a little carefully. On this note sometimes I just find combat to be frustrating if you are in a place that you get one shot in.
- Armor feels negligible at times, I also still feel I just end up popping bandages too much. Fall damage of course adds to that
-Multiplayer part is true mostly
-Survival is questionable. What would be cool is to make slow and easy to dodge enemies hit hard, and make the jittery stuff easier to manage. Nothing ever feels "hard" only "too easy" or "Too frustrating" in my experience so far.
-What do you mean by dodging in starbound? I do hope it can be balanced further, because it only hits the sweet spot in a few places from what I've seen. Then I end up in territory where I hit the "Too easy/Too frustrating" part

Ultimately I do like tanking in most games, not because I like to eat hits, but I like to be at risk for the group. However that is not the sort of system Starbound has and so I am having run running about. However I don't find it intuitive enough to compare it to something like Dark Souls which hits a great balance in that regard.

 

Starbound currently has no way of supporting either playstyles correctly. The combat currently is pretty awful.

You also have the inherent issue of it being 2D. You can't pull off dynamic, fluid motions in a 2D game, so any idea of being even remotely like Dark Souls is thrown out of the window. 3D games are incredibly dynamic and flexible, and you're able to dodge in all directions, etc. In a 2D game it comes down to "Did I move left enough, or right enough?". In 2D your attackers attack in a set way and your ability to maneuver is also set a certain way. No in between.

What's more rewarding is also entirely subjective. Either playstyle can be just as rewarding depending on who's playing which. Tanking doesn't have to be just "more HP", or "more defense". I think Risk of Rain does an excellent job with its Enforcer character. It's a tank that requires skill to BE a tank. If you don't know what you're doing you'll die just as easily as any other character, but when utilizing its skills correctly your survivability goes up tremendously, giving yourself the ability to take on many attacks at once without so much as a scratch.

Honestly I think some of the reasons why Starbound's combat is wonky is that you can't know what enemy will attack you until they do, and you can't know what enemy uses what type of attack until they do, etc. This constant unknowing goes further when the AI behaves in impossible-to-predict manners due to how the AI is deciding to interact with the environment at any given time. Player "skill" only goes so far, and you can NEVER truly pull off proper dodging or tanking playstyles, at least not at the moment.

 

Well fighting games have been 2d for along time and have counters, dodges and fluid animation. So I don't agree with that. I do agree that the system needs work we must keep in mind we are reporting issues on a beta/late alpha.

 

Except fighting games don't utilize ACTUAL dodging mechanics either. It's always a mechanic that makes up for the lack of legitimate dodging, like invincibility frames of various types. I also am complete aware of this being a beta, and have beta testing countless games at this point which is why I word my posts with "as of now", "at the moment", etc. It's possible it could EVENTUALLY be improved, but CURRENTLY it's garbage.

 

Tanking. Dodging on random generated terrain with is a nightmare.

 

Not knowing what the enemy will do is part of the game... your exploring a new world... it is normal that you don't know it's fauna...

 

Would rather be a mix of dodger and tanker, but that doesn't seem really possible under the current balance.

If we could occasionally recklessly eat a hit to deliver a few good strikes in without getting insta gibbed, it would better imho. Though please understand that I prefer the dodge system overall for the reasons you mentioned, I just wish that slipping up wasn't an all or nothing mistake.

 

I agree on most points about dodging systems in general but I also have to agree with Attribute: Starbound currently does not have a viable dodging system. What it seems to lack the most is the concept of invincibility frames, a period of time that the player is impossible to damage during an animation or action. Getting gang-beaten by mobs, or multi-hit by streams of attacks, isn't really fun and doesn't allow the player to get back out of a mistake or surprise attack. The other thing it lacks is any sort of dodge move or maneuver, mostly because of the aforementioned lack of invincibility frames. In a 3D game there are dodge moves that allow you to get into and out of range with the enemy due to being able to maneuver in 3D. Some don't even have invincibility frames, like the aforementioned Dark Souls. In a 2D game there can be dodge moves but there's no way to get "around" your opponent -- unless there are invincibility frames coupled with movement abilities.

The other factor working against making Starbound dependent on dodging is the multiplayer. You state that it makes multiplayer better and more challenging, separates out good players from bad and keeps people alert. From my own experience playing Terraria and Minecraft multiplayer I can safely say that latency is a far, far bigger issue to the combat than skill. In either of those games played on a server you will get hit no matter how good you are. Damage mitigation is key to making the game still playable on servers because often the client doesn't accurately see where the enemy is and what it's doing. Starbound has fast, agile enemies that have projectile attacks. Dodging these when you're even a fraction of a second out of sync with the server is nearly impossible.

 

He's clearly writing about mobs lack of "preparing for attack" animation not about their aggressiveness.

 

Perhaps armour could have defense and dodging perks? Like a certain percentage or chance of dodging an attack...or a 10% increase in defense. This could even have a higher bonus if wearing a full set, maybe? Anyway, just my ideas.