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RELEASED Avali Race Mod, The second thread!

Discussion in 'Races' started by RyuujinZERO, Apr 16, 2014.

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  1. Kii-Gwan

    Kii-Gwan Master Chief

    and also... how about more clothing for avalis without outside mods?
     
  2. RyuujinZERO

    RyuujinZERO Supernova

    Yes, there is only trace amounts of free oxygen in their atmosphere, any free oxygen would quickly react and be converted into other, more inert compounds.

    What force fields? ;)
     
  3. Marxon

    Marxon Supernova

    Does this mean that it's time to discuss their wrist mounted shield projectors?
    Brace for science!
     
  4. Surge

    Surge Phantasmal Quasar

    much better!
     
  5. Neleos

    Neleos Title Not Found

    I've spend almost 4 hours talking with some biologists and chemists at my university about how realistic your race would be in real (I did it of curiosity). Well for me (as a psychologist with basic chemistry and biological knowledge) It's even more complicated to understand all these chemical and biological stuff, therefore anything was quite, lets say, mindblowing BUT really interesting.
    They explained me that it's hardly possible that Avali can exist based on our Earth knowledge. However It's not fully impossible based on the "unknown" factor. One of this chemist explained me that it's quite possible to find an unknown Chemical Element somewhere in space which makes an complex ammonium- carbon organism based on your environment possible. Well, another question, I think any Water- Carbon based food must be in some kind, "toxic" (or at least heavy unhealthy) for an Avali don't you think so too?
     
  6. RyuujinZERO

    RyuujinZERO Supernova

    Ammonia/Carbon chemistries are theoretically possible, ammonia is a perfectly good solvent for a wide range of organic reactions. The main problem isn't that it's "not" possible, more that it's not very "viable", ammonia based bio-chemistries would be much slower and less energetic. And i have doubts there'd be anywhere enough energy in the environment on Avalon to support an eco-system with remotely complex biologies.

    You need remember an ammonia based organism isn't going to use the same complexes, proteins, enzymes etc - they'd used different molecules that ultimately result in life. The likelyhood of that life appearing anything earthlike though is slim, so in that respect the Avali also fail as they fit a theropod structure very closely. There's no good reason for the similarity even if they are still 100 times more alien looking than anything on Star Trek.
    Discounting the Tholians, Horta etc...

    As for water-carbon foods; it's highly unlikely they could derive nutrients from anything like that. Whether it'd be actively toxic is another thing entirely though. At the end of the day, any kind of alien life is likely to find alien food toxic. Even cats and dogs cannot eat certain foods (Such as chocolate) because it messes with their metabolism. Something that has evolved on another planet will have very different needs and tolerances.
     
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  7. Neleos

    Neleos Title Not Found

    Yes I absolutely agree to this based on earth biology knowledge. But I can also imagine that there are complex amomium based life forms on Alavon with highly energic nutrients which are unknown for us (probably slightly radio active?) probably not bacterias but far smaller organic structures something like a virus-bacteria hybrid, complex anaerobic based life forms and amonium based fauna which is able to use diferent energy sources for their metabolism such as radiation or probably pure cosmic energy ( :p ).

    By the way, I also think that an Avali must be far smarter then an average human. Such complex social characteristics and skills requires highly developed intellectual power to manage multiple advanced empathy-based reflexion prozesses at once.

    (I apologize for my spelling errors I'm not a native english speaker)
     
  8. RyuujinZERO

    RyuujinZERO Supernova

    Heh, it's a bit far fetched those energy source, but you did remind me that ammonia is able to dissolve and react metal ions in exactly the way water doesn't. So there might be some exotic metabolic processes that could be conducted or catalysed by metals.
     
  9. Myifee

    Myifee Guest

    I need to pay attention here more often.

    Out of curiosity, I wondered: The two sets of ears probably have different names, and different ranges of motion. To prevent myself from getting dull in drawing and/or break anatomy, what's the safest range of motion they can move?
     
  10. J_Mourne

    J_Mourne Pangalactic Porcupine

    Yanking from the wiki because this actually has been discussed surprisingly extensively on a talk page there. Nothing's set in stone, of course, it's an old conversation.

    • Longbow73
      My friend and I had few breakthroughs about the shields.

      1. Magnetism. Very simple idea. The shield generates an extremely powerful magnetic field which slows or stops incoming projectiles, including plasma, because plasma is highly ionized.. However, this presents one major problem. Nonferrous metals. Which is where idea number 2 comes in.

      2. Induction. As any given conductor experiences a changing magnetic field, it induces a current in the conductor (more on that in idea 3). This current, if it was powerful enough, may produce enough heat via the resistance of the material to melt it, allowing it to (theoretically) be stopped by an aerogel shield, since aerogel has a high melting temperature and low thermal conductivity. [Though, admittedly, I am not entirely sure how well it would hold up against molten metal] (Ineffecient against plasma weaponry?)

      3. Dual-repulsion. The current flowing through the projectile causes the projectile to create it's own electric field. If the shield had an electric field too, it could cause repulsion between the two, assuming they have the same charge.

      4. Solely my friend's idea. He proposed that 3D printed aerogel reinforced with carbon nanotubes might work in this way: Two plates of aerogel would be charged/magnetized with the same charge, so they repel each other (I don't see the purpose of that particular bit, but apparently he does). The strong fields generated by each would slow down incoming projectiles, to the point where the stronger, more structurally stable aerogel would be able to take the force of the projectile. New aerogel to replace any shattered parts could be quickly 3D printed back out for use. (My question is: How does that stand up to a hail of gunfire?)

      01:57, April 4, 2014

    • TheRealRyuujinZERO
      Sorry about not replying sooner, wanted to have a think on the dynamics.

      1, Magnetic shielding would actually accelerate not decellerate ferrous projectiles. Ferrous materials align their internal magnetic field with that of the magnet (opposites attract), that is why they are attracted to magnetic fields. Nevermind how hazardously powerful such a field would have to be to deflect rail rpoejctiles (Which are typically uranium or tungstern, both of which are paramagnetic and thus not noticably attracted).

      2. As you say "conductor", a projectile in flight represents an isolated system, it has nowhere for charge to flow and thus should be more-or-less unaffected. Incidentally if you're generating a field capable of ruinous induction you'd likely melt all your electronics ;)

      3. See 2, even if the projectile does form a circuit capable of a current (such as seen in an RFID chip), the structure of the circuit would have to be just right so that the resulting magnetic field in stronger across the opposing pole, otherwise it'd still be attracted

      4. I imagine magnetised aerogel is possible using the right material. As it is though I have pondered using a 3d printer to regenerate armour plating (aerogel wouldn't be a good choice but there are other printable composites), however I still have doubts about the effectiveness of lightweight printable armours against railguns (or even purpose built reactive armours)

      Edited by TheRealRyuujinZERO 14:30, April 8, 2014

    • Longbow73
      1. Probably correct. His idea, really, but I thought something about rapidly reversing magnetic fields - the field rapidly switched polarities.

      2. A metal bar can still work, because the charges move to opposite ends - why not a bullet? Though admittedly, you would ruin all your electronics. But aren't there ways of shielding electronics form that kind of thing? Faraday cages and the like?

      3. Correct. I need to recall my physics lessons a bit better.

      4. I suppose we'll think about it, no?

      There could always be traditional steel shields, but it seems rather generic and boring. Also incongruous with Avali visuals/aesthetics.

      00:27, April 9, 2014

    • J Mourne
      I don't mean to butt in on your conversation... but I just thought I'd butt in on your conversation. (I don't know why this sort of thing is showing up in the activity feed).

      ---

      What about composite armor? As Ryuujin has pointed out, aerogel shatters fairly easily, and it's only constant reprinting that allows it to make an effective weapon. Nanocanvas, on the other hand, is resistant to small arms fire, but loose-flowing cloth requires support to provide an effective defense (silk, for instance, is really strong, but a stab by a knife will simply push the silk into the wound). Both materials can be manufactured fairly simply from basic resources at Avali manufacturing devices.

      So, say you have a shield, and you generate not a solid sheet of aerogel, but a thin panel encased in nanocanvas. The nanocanvas stops the round from going through, and the aerogel crushes to dissipate the energy. It's the same reasoning as the use of ceramics alongside metals in composite armor (see here for an example using ceramic and aluminum: http://www.alsic.com/HybrdTech-Technology.html.) The ceramic gets crushed to redirect the energy of the round, and the metal stops what's left from penetrating.

      Reprinting such components from the shield proper would be rather tricky though. It'd be easier to just have the panels be manually replaced after taking damage (which is necessary with composite armors - they don't take repeated hits to the same tile very well). Your final look would probably be something like a roundshield made of hexagonal or other interlocking tiles. Increasing tiers would allow at first for larger shields, and probably eventually a central printer mechanism for the highest tiers.

      ---

      Another option would be to say that the Avali don't actually use shields, but instead use their hologram technology to create a decoy (their hologram technology certainly looks sophisticated enough to allow for this). Raising your shield, instead of projecting an orange sphere, would place and hold a decoy Avali in front of your character. Not quite as realistically protective in a fight as the composite armor idea, but certainly unique and plausible. Increasing tiers could make the decoy progressively more photorealistic, with sharper image or better color.

      ---

      Anyway, I'm sure you've considered some of these ideas before, but I just wanted to be sure they were on the table.

      Edited by J Mourne 06:49, April 9, 2014

    • TheRealRyuujinZERO
      I love the hologram idea, it's strange but I'd *never* considered that offshoot of the technology. Obviously they have adaptive camoflage to hide themselves, but it seems obvious that you could render holographic decoys too.

      I was actually planning on going with a conventional heavy shield. Remember they are big on team work, it seems obvious that in urban warfare strategy you might have a pack member wearring heavy armour with a large, armoured shield (So big and heavy they can't realisticlly use a weapon of their own) who can provide mobile cover for another pack member with a heavy ranged weapon

    The final conclusion, mentioned briefly here but I think expanded upon elsewhere in the thread, was Ryuujin's "bunker shield" idea. Essentially the modern answer to the medieval square "tower shield," this sort of shield would be a heavy physical barrier designed to provide cover for several Avali at once fighting as a pack. Unlike modern riot shields, such a shield would not need viewports, but could use cameras on the exterior to project information from the far side to the operator who remains safely in cover.

    Of course, this was all from quite a while back, and "The author reserves the right to have a better idea."

    So until we get proper, finalized shields in the mod, all we can say for certain is that the force-fields are only a placeholder. Unfortunately, for the same reason as with guns, we're not likely to see shields reworked until Chucklefish pulls their own act together and releases parrying and blocking as they teased us with in the combat update a while back.
    Going from minor to major questions, my only moderately-informed opinions and ramblings:

    Water/carbon food is only dangerous in so far as the temperature range is too extreme and Avali biologies are no more designed to digest copious amounts of water ice than our bodies are to digest copious amounts of sand. But yes, generally speaking, there's a degree of food incompatibility there in the lore. I believe, though I'm not certain, that the main problem isn't that ammonia/carbon biology couldn't exist, but that, operating without any fudges in the calculations or happy coincidences, it couldn't be anywhere near as energetic as the Avali or water/carbon biologies. I personally hold some doubt as to the existence of a new periodic element (almost certainly impossible - we've not observed any elements from the hypothetical "island of stability" proposed to exist deep within the artificial elements) or even just a new, previously-undiscovered molecule with some bizarre chemical properties.

    ....

    Fair warning, this spiraled into a mini-essay on the value of science fiction. However, it's all very applicable to you. Also, Ryuujin ninja'd me, it'd appear, while I was writing this, took a break to exercise, and came back, but I'll be darned if I don't post it after all this thought and writing.

    ....

    However, while the science of the Avali isn't completely accurate, this isn't much of a problem. The science is already greatly more accurate than any other race in Starbound, as I believe you've probably already noticed. More importantly however, is that the Avali were not designed as an exercise in chemistry or biology, to try to imagine how aliens would develop under certain situations. They were designed, as the very best science-fiction races are, as a thought exercise in societal development. Given these conditions, how would such a race develop? What would they believe in, fight toward, die for? How would they love, play, entertain, think? What sorts of lives would they lead, and how would they differ from what we here on Earth, Terra, just the third of many, many, rocks orbiting a completely unremarkable main sequence star arrogantly assume to be "normal?"

    If you want to take issue with science in speculative fiction, you're in for a long, boring stay. Physics disallows us the use of faster-than-light engines, a staple in science fiction both good and bad ever since we first measured the distance to the stars and regretted that we'd never be able to reach them in our lifetimes. Chemistry and biology suggest that any but the most carefully-arranged expeditions to foreign planets be handled by drones and automated probes. The cold reality of space gives us many ways to die horribly without any hope, and few to no solaces other than the best view anyone will ever get. To complain that speculative science fiction takes liberties misses the point. The best science fiction broadens our horizons into vistas we'd never otherwise see or understand by breaking a few rules. "Assume," go these creative scientists of our imaginations, "assume we could visit alien planets. What might we find?"

    "Imagine," says Isaac Asimov, "a system of rules that gives robotic constructs free will within limits. How could they work within these rules? What unexpected actions might they take as a result of simple restraints on their behavior?"

    "Consider," intones Robert Heinlein, "a galaxy at war, where natural selection gives us no choice - us or them. Is this our universe? Would we be prepared?"

    "Open your minds," suggests Gene Roddenberry, "to a world where scarcity is no more, and science, peace, and exploration are the primary ends of life. Mightn't this be our reality someday, if we put aside our differences?"

    "Picture," Ryuujin tells us, "a universe full of wonder hiding cold truths. A planet where a quiet and unassuming race of raptor-like sentients approaches a technological singularity. A frozen, feathery species to whom we would be as creatures of molten lead or glass. A race that holds pack and tribe as close as we hold kin. Creatures who began to develop culturally and ethically well before they were given high technology. Who would these creatures be, and what would they become?"​

    All of these writers and artists had flaws in their works, but because they treated their works seriously and reasoned clearly and honestly, we learn from them without ever intending to. You may bring up flaws in Avali biology here; but look, because you've already learned about an exotic hypothetical biology they never tell you about in school. I have gained insight into how societies develop and had some, frankly, mind-blowingly fascinating discussions on the obligations and ethics of superpowers and nations. And all of these came not because we took everything at face value, but because we messed around with the system. We experimented, you could say, in our minds. And let nobody tell you that breaking the rules to see what happens is bad when it comes to science. As long as we are willing to be intellectually honest and internally consistent, a good examination of what happens when we break a rule - like faster-than-light travel, or ammonia/carbon biology - can tell us more about the world than hundreds of thought experiments that follow the rules to the letter and conclude nothing new.

    The distinction between "soft" and "hard" science is often an incorrect one. What matters is how the science is treated: is it a tool to an end, or is it the end itself? Does the writer imagine new technologies to solve a problem, or to explore the problems and societies such technologies would create? Does the artist describe a world with faster-than-light travel merely because he wants a sailing voyage in the future, or does he consider the ramifications such huge insights into physics would have? Does the creator allow for hyper-intelligent AIs just as an excuse to have an otherwise-human character with exceptional computer skills, or does he delve into the ramifications of such systems, how truly alien they would be to us, where their loyalties would lie, how people would react (or not) to the very real possibility that their very lives might now be micromanaged by god-like computers without their knowledge? Does self-replicating, all-consuming nanotechnology exist as a way to end planets at the author's whim or create tanks and equipment from thin air like magic, or are the post-scarcity economics and tensions such technology would immediately cause considered?

    Whatever the flaws of Ryuujin's Avali, I believe they fall firmly in the latter category. What non-factual assumptions he makes, and they are few, are done to broaden the horizons of our minds and imaginations rather than close them down. He wants us to consider a new viewpoint rather than ignore the plot device. So while you are probably completely correct that the Avali could not exist in reality, that's a viewpoint that rather harms the mental enjoyment you can get out of the project.

    Rather, how would things be, if they could.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2014
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  11. Neleos

    Neleos Title Not Found

    Anthing is "bit far fetched" as long its not proved right?
    But yes I'ts quite hard to explain anything based on our knowledge most of the processes i know are based on water or oxygen.
    I've tryed to put hydrodenitrogenation in context but must admit I'm still failing because of lacking knowledge
     
  12. Intrebute

    Intrebute Pangalactic Porcupine

    Goddamn motherfudging slow clap of the ages.
     
  13. Neleos

    Neleos Title Not Found

    First of all thanks for your time I really appreciate it.

    Secondly, well sometimes I wonder why I'm trying to hit my fangs deep into sience and rationality. However I totaly agree you, but you must know. This mod is quite fascinating for me. I'm a man with a upleasant mix of rationality and belief. Proving something "fantastic" I like provides me pleasure, even if it's completely impossible, as long just a small pice is logical its fine for me.

    Despite this I think, anthing I wrote here is in some kind less mod related (sorry). I've got fascinated by all these sinentific sub topics within the Avali lore and I start researching to sate my own curiosity.
    And, hell yes! It broadens my horizons! My deepest thanks for this wonderfull work! :)
    I actually prefer all this technical and social aspects of Avali, especially the social ones (probably because i've realized that we humans are not that social as we should be)
    I don't want to "crush" something with rationality sorry ^^
     
  14. J_Mourne

    J_Mourne Pangalactic Porcupine

    Yeah, it's fine. I wasn't trying to come across as attacking your position, it's just a topic I really like talking about. And I got a mite carried away...

    So sorry if I put you on the defensive there or anything. We all enjoy the mod in some way or another, or we wouldn't be here.
     
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  15. Marxon

    Marxon Supernova

    So much, science... so much, technology.
    Glorious.

    Thank you for finding this.
     
  16. Marxon

    Marxon Supernova

    That would be interesting to see, they're pretty articulate judging from the last drawing Ryuujin put up, it's almost like they are on socketed joints...
    [​IMG]
    This should shed a bit of light on it, the ears themselves are barely sketched out on the center sketch though.
     
  17. Kawa

    Kawa Tiy's Beard

    Ah yes. The "holy fuckshits" pic. I remember it well.
     
  18. RyuujinZERO

    RyuujinZERO Supernova

    The ridges along where the ears are seated are for the muscles to attach. Generally you find on skeletons that there are ridges where muscle groups attach, and since the avali ears are highly mobile, they have a simple musculature around their bases.
     
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  19. Marxon

    Marxon Supernova

    You're starting to make me wonder whether the ears have a better range of motion than their upper legs, and I've seen how they compress their whole leg structure like an accordion to crouch, I always found it amusing how much they can compress their legs...

    Which made me come up with another question, wouldn't the Avali have an impressive amount of jumping power due to the amount of thigh muscles combined with their flexible leg structure which would allow them to impart force downward for a great deal longer than any human could dream of. I could easily see a very interesting world of parkour for them with all the traits they have.
     
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  20. RyuujinZERO

    RyuujinZERO Supernova

    Yes, combined with the low gravity and wings they could perform an impressive standing jump into flight, especially when you factor in their small size and low mass. Originally when I envisioned them I considered them gliders, it's just recently I realised that actually they'd be able to fly under those environmental conditions (Indeed, so would a human if they strapped wings to their arms and flapped)

    But at any rate a powerful pounce/jump/sprint is in their capabilities. What they lack is stamina more than power/speed.
     
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