A concern

This isn't really being addressed anywhere that I can see, and in my opinion, it's a pretty big and concerning issue for quite a lot of people.

The concern at hand is the apparent lack of any PvE endgame content.

In the recent update Tiy wrote on where he wants Starbound to be headed, he wrote a lot of new and interesting things, many of which I'm very much looking forward too.

However. He wrote, explicitly, that the endgame content will be PvP forced Sector X.
This begs the question; is Starbound's only endgame going to be forced PvP? Is the entire slog through tier progression just so you can go kill other people in a never-ending fight for planet control?

As a primarily PvE player, and occasional co-op player (never PvP), this deeply concerns me. What's really the point of tier progression for me and many others like me if the end result is simply PvP?

Please do not misunderstand me. While I don't personally like PvP, I am not against it. I readily acknowledge the fact many people enjoy PvP, and all the more power to those people.
What I am against is making the end-game content, something that gives reason to building yourself up, a forced PvP experience.

Thoughts? Opinions? Viewpoints I haven't considered or haven't gone in-depth enough on?

 

from what I gathered on that, or what I interpreted was that there would be a co-op aspect as well. For single player I would imagine it would be just you against the events that are added to that sector.

One thing i would like to note is that fact mentioning more server host control, which could mean that the host could set it up to have it PVE co-op if they wanted. Also instance like maps, whether supplied a few or not through them by default in game or just map makers in the modding community makes it co-op oriented. Similar to when you would enter an instance in WOW, that only your party will be in that instance and you co-op through the map.

That is my understanding. I believe it simple means that the sector itself may be intended to be pvp, but does not necessarily mean the host will make it so, when it is multiplayer. having access to sector X will in no doubt be possible even in single player to experience what ever default or downloaded content they want that that sector is.

 

From what I read, despite the Dungeonmaster-esque server controls, PvP would be auto-enabled in sector X.
While Dungeonmaster control definitely opens up near infinite possibilities, that is still a multiplayer only option, as is Sector X. So far, nothing has actually been mentioned for Single Player end-game content. It also seemed to me that Sector X was the end game content, ipso facto, end. It was very "hey this is it ok thanks bye", at least from my way of reading it.
I just don't want to slog through tiers only to be faced with :really cool endgame stuff you worked hard to reach is available only in multiplayer!" or, even worse, "available in PvP forced multiplayer Sectors!" y'know?

 

What does PvE mean in a game that has a defined end of its gear and technological progression in a game? With an MMO, this means an end to player interest until the next content patch. With a game like Diablo, it means repetition for procedurally generated goodies that are marginally better than each other in a tedious quest for some holy grail of optimisation. In something like Minecraft, it means now you've overcome the harsh environment, and it is now your right to shape it as you see fit. In something like Terraria, it means its time to play in multiplayer and make something cool, time to collect everything that is a rare drop, or time to make a new character and do it all again.

So, let's take all of that and put it together, because Starbound has elements of all of this. X Sector PvP is not ever going to be a genuine focus on a game mechanics level. If it was, everything about be about extreme balance and the like, something that is felt throughout the rest of the game and something that stifles the other major part of the stated end game: creativity. Working together to create things, or making amazing things yourself. For what I would describe as the actual PvE gameplay of Starbound, it hasn't ended at this point either. It has become combined with the adventure and exploration element of Starbound. Now that you can fight anything, you can finally explore the universe without any fear. You can also now go on a quest for theoretical optimisation, seeking the best of the randomly generated equipment. You can now go on a hunt for all of the lore and secrets in the world. You can now go toe to toe with the hardest quests that the upcoming game will have to offer. You will now have the power to live the life of a truly Type-2 Civlisation Citizen. If that isn't the existence of, and also a rather big focus on, endgame PvE content, I'm not sure what exactly is.

 

He did say that there would also be quests and events, as well as strong enough monsters to keep the game challenging even with the best gear. He also mentioned an "invasion" event that is supposed to keep the game fresh, but that is a bit too vague. Not sure if that's enough to go with for end game.

I'm hoping to see randomly generated epic bosses, kind of like how common monsters work. Random body parts, random weak points and random abilities. Each boss could drop a randomly generated item that resembles the boss' appearance, like a horned alien skull with tentacle hair, a pink scaled axe with crocodile claws, wings decorating it's back side and a fish eye in the center or some crazy stuff like that. That would me mighty cool. Kind of like monster hunter i guess.

 

i referred to server and that DM part being separate. Sure the host can be a DM, but does not have to be the DM, as anyone or amount of people can be setup into that mode; all determined on a consensus.

I was mainly referring to the server options being expanded; which is not quite related to DM mode. As the host sets up their server, sometimes having mods to circumvent such things in game. So it is safe to say some might just turn that auto-pvp off for their server. Sure you may find more that have it on, but always a possible choice. There is always a way.

I kind of go along the lines of what the two people about me mentioned. That is what makes me think that it is possible for single player to even step foot into the sector X. If you couldn't in single player, that would not make any sense at all. After all it is suppose to be open to both atmospheres; single and multi player. Far as I know anyway. The default content to experience could very well be what those above have mentioned. Hence my conclusion of single player.

Far as the PVE, I have to agree with @Sophia Aetheria, as that makes most sense to me. I personally am a builder, and it is the mechanics to do with building a Universe that interests me; even if that would take a while. lol

Plus for me there would be plenty of things to do, as end game for me would be simply to have all options open for me to utilize in my building ambition. Also note that this probably wouldn't be the only end game way, it is just one of the many things I picked out from those posts that confirms what more likely my path might be. To me it looks like there will be several paths that can be taken, and that would most likely define what end game would become for you in starbound. It is like developing a route to the end in which you will pave, so it would hopefully fit the style of play you do. that is the expression I got from all that.

if one is to pick out just 1 or 2 points from Tiy's post then that is only a fraction of the idea as a whole. And only seeing just those ideas picked out, of course from the look of it, it would seem like there isn't this or that. Since I tend to look at all of it as a whole, this is how I came to my conclusion. Mention of the systems/mechanics of one end to lead to the other, that is the path you decide to take, so that even though you have reached said end, there will be other things to do, even in single player. It is not likely that Sector X would be closed off to single player, as i mentioned that just would not make sense. PVP wouldn't have much effect in single player. Sector X taking in the whole would be only forced if it is the server was setup that way, or you are in single player(even though in programming it will be pvp, but doesn't matter in single, as it takes more than 1 to pvp).

I don't know it is just the common sense I use, which can be different for each person, but for me that is common sense or logical anyhow.

 

crossposting from the news thread -

what. ok, let me get this straight.... the team lead just admitted he was depending on users to create the singleplayer endgame for him.

this does not bode well at all.

 

How much end-game can there really be in a game like this? Eventually you stop getting "better" and things stop getting "harder". Has to stop somewhere. When that happens the only real way to make things different and a new experience is a "human" factor (PvP), where things are rarely ever the same. For single player, what can you do? Short of having bosses and planets stay hard to survive, you can't have harder bosses and such unless you are able to get better yourself. Pretty much all you can do for single player is to keep having things to discover/explore and collect...but that only satisfies those who like collecting.

The best I can see them being able to do is use "instance" mods so single players can infinitely add and run the player made missions/instances Tiy mentioned. That'd keep content fresh at least.

 

i dunno, how much endgame content is there in terreria? this is a serious question, as i have not played terreria to the endgame.

 

But are said quests/events confined to Sector X? Obviously Tiy didn't say one way or the other, but it's that vagueness that makes this a concern.
After all, unless there's some new benefit to keeping control of a planet, why bother, right? Plenty of other planets out there for whatever you need.

What lore and secrets? The ones posted on the Wiki? Building and creativity are an integral part of the game, they shouldn't be used as excuses for end-game content. Same goes for the adventure aspect. Why would I seek random RNG-based equipment if there's nothing left for me to use it on, save other people?

 

Really not much. I mean you beat the last boss and...well, you collect things and build. You can keep fighting the last boss over and over if you want. That's it. Except in Terraria you don't have mods and player-content to expand the game for you.

Same with Minecraft. The only way to make games like this continue on is by adding more and more content and new stuff.

Heck, even MMOs "end-game" revolves around requiring more and more players (raids instead of parties). The only way you can get harder content yet NOT require better gear and skills, is to require MORE people. Otherwise it's an endless cycle of harder content, better gear, harder content, better gear. End game is a myth.

 

what was all this my friends talked about involving "hard mode" and going through the game a second time?

 

To everyone complaining about the end game of Starbound being widely multiplayer focused:

How do you not see this coming? 95% of the people I know who enjoyed Terraria or enjoy Starbound enjoy it because they have friends. A big thing about Starbound is being with others. It's a huge connectivity thing.

Why would they NOT focus on keeping the multiplayer high quality, which is the vast majority of the playerbase?

And if you like singleplayer? You're not exactly fucked. There'll be ways to do a lot of the stuff solo, or with NPCs. There'll also be player made things for you.

I REALLY don't see the issue here.

Hard mode was essentially the EXACT same thing as jumping tiers in Starbound. Added a biome, upped mob difficulty, added more possibility for weapons, altered existing things, added new bosses.

 

What I get that is each individual item has a comma separating the different things. After mods is additional quests & high level content; which implies they are going to be adding those things. I actually read that part on reddit a bit ago before seeing that, reminded me of it when you posted. Anyway the things that would be player made would be mods and player made missions(implying multiplayer, but could also mean options within game that players could make themselves.) Those two by default really wouldn't be in single player, just the other 2 items mentioned.

Since to have the multiplayer experience there has to be those things as well. He basically stated would be available in single player; and that does imply quite a few of the multiplayer things will be available within reason, after all it takes 2 to tango.

 

Exactly. Basically you beat bosses until you reach one that when you beat it turns the world into hardmode (jumping a sector)...Next tier of ores, next tiers of bosses, new biome. That's it. That's their end-game. After you beat that, it's...wait for next expansion or patch that adds yet another "sector" where you repeat the whole get new gear, kill new bosses until you're at the end again.

At least with Starbound what you get with the end game is infinite sector where you're exploring never has to end. You can always explore and find new combinations of planet hardhips/generation/etc. I'll take that end-game for single player any day of the week!

 

Err, that's a very odd way to look at it. The same can be said for ANY and EVERY game that has player created content. I can't think of any better method of enhancing end game content than to allow the possibilities of it being infinite. Who in their right mind would rather Tiy say "This is the end game content. Players won't be able to add to it and make more"? Nobody? Right, nobody.

 

sector x is an optinal sector you get at the end of the game for people who still want chalange,
everything you can find in sector x you can find it sector omega (or whatever the 10th one will be called)

 

The issue is that you shouldn't ever give part of your community the shaft to focus on another part? Especially when both parts have been loyally supporting you. The game has been largely single player so long, just throwing that all out and going "Nope, multiplayer only from here on out" is just a big middle finger to everyone who liked to play solo. You know, the people who supported and funded a beta product under the premise it'd be a single player co-op game. Not a half-effort MMO.

 

instead he said "we cant be asked to do things for solo players. that's your job". i remember reading someone talk about "bethesda syndrome" recently. what this means is relying on user made mods and content to put your game into a "fun and playable" state. this is "lazy developing".

yes, multiplayer can be fun. but for a game like starbound, developing multiplayer at the expense of the single player experience is... well, not smart.

if this was the plan from the start, it was not communicated sufficiently. i would not have wasted my time following development, nor my money buying the game twice, had i known this was going to be the plan. i cannot be alone in this.

i suspect that over the next few days, as more people read the news, a shitstorm will develop of such magnitude that singleplay will get love. it's just extremely depressing that this has come about at all.

 

I get what you're saying, I just don't get where any of what he said about PvP end-game means that they won't be focusing on single-player. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the PvP end-game will be the last thing they focus on.

I'm all for amazing single-player end-game (even though I'll never play this game on anything but co-op). But I'm totally open to any ideas on how one would create end-game content for a game like this. End game in this type of game is simply freedom to do whatever you want. I can't imagine anything else they could possibly do short of continue to add patches to introduce more gear and bosses. And like I said, it has to stop somewhere.

The best and only real end-game for single player I can think of is empire simulation. Instead of spreading your empire (is: Rise of Nations style) by controlling PvP planets, I suppose you could go against AI corporations or empires. Settle planets, keep expanding, generate a massive fortune, etc. An endless version of that is about the best end-game single player-wise you can hope for. Any other ideas? I'm open!