So, I was watching WelshPixie's latest Q&A video about this game, and I heard about the stealth feature. I became quickly concerned when I heard about how the stealth armor works. From the sounds of it, it's basically binary. Either you can sneak past an enemy or you can't. There's no tactical or skillful focus when it comes to the stealth, and that's a major turnoff for me. Well made stealth games are some of the best games out there, like Stealth Bastard or Final Ninja. However, if stealth is going to be in the game, it should either be fun and engaging or it shouldn't exist, in my opinion. A binary stealth factor is just dull and predictable. So far the only thing I can think of that would make stealth work in procedurally generated planets would be special arenas where you had the option of either sneaking through to the treasure (maybe you need to be fairly fast to do so, though) or fighting through a large wave of enemies. Anyways, I hope you guys find a way to change up stealth to be interesting, but as it is it just sounds dull and annoying.
I'm sure they'll find some way to balance it. I see what you mean though, binary stealth wouldn't be terribly fun. Maybe different types of monsters would be easier to hide from than others? Like say, it would be easy to hide from a feral rabbit, but very difficult to successfully hide from a very inteligent humanoid. I'm sure they'll work it out for the best.
I think it should involve skill, and also if you have better stealth gear, it becomes easier, with more room for error.
How about certain kinds of stealth that can be countered in certain ways, like being visible when wet or dusty, moldy air that ruins the stealth. Another thing is stealth armor costing a lot of energy, or inhibiting movement or weapon use to punish for using it. I don't have a good idea to replace the binary system, but depth could be added in these ways. If I had to suggest, maybe some stealth items can be chameleonic with a slight delay between color changes in order to force the user to think.
Lighting should be taken into account, or at the very least the day/night cycle (easier to go stealth mode during the night). Also if they implemented weight, it would also be a good idea (the more weight in equipment you carry, the worst is your stealth). I'm not sure if these would be easy to code, but the lighting is of the essence. Only this already gets skill involved, as you should choose the right moments, the right situations, sneak through darkness, maybe even take off torches or lamps to keep going unseen.
I doubt they will leave it as basic as they talked about. They mentioned how enemies have line of sight, that's a good start. They could take advantage of the destructible terrain. Digging a tunnel under the enemy is stealth right?
A high energy cost would be great in my opinion. Much more balanced. Chameleonic in the way you described it would be very good, maybe as the stealth armor becomes more advanced and upgraded by the player, the less time it would take to change color?
I would go the Skyrim route: Walking, mining, fighting, and lots of other things make noise. Noise & line of sight determine if you are hidden. If you make enough noise or go into a spot w/out much cover, people will look for you. After a bit, they stop looking for you. I also agree with an earlier post, where they took weather and lighting into account.
In my opinion, the enemies' ability to detect a player should mostly depend on the brightness of the area you are in. Pitch-black? No problem. Dark? Can't sneak past, but can still approach an enemy on a certain distance. Bright? No chances, pal.
I think they need to put some thought in this before they make a decision. Also I want it to be balanced so that stealth is better than going straight up to enemies. Btw what's binary stealth?
Binary stealth refers to only two possibilities: Either you have enough stealth stat (good stealth armor or whatever) and you are undetected, either you don't and you are detected. Always. Basically, numbers, without involving skill like moving through the correct areas, without choosing the good moments, etc...
This gets really deep really fast when you realize that simply, beings able to detect stuff can do it IN A WHOLE RANGE OF WAYS beyond vision and hearing... Vision: the classic of most games. Works through light waves hitting a surface that passes the information to the watcher. Detect stuff when the information caught of the light shows that there is someone "there". Variations include movement-watcher(Jurassic Park - T-REX), heat-watcher(Predator - Himself), cold-watcher(Predator 2 - Himself), see only some light waves(Real Life - Everything That Can See)... Hearing: detection through sound waves. Some animals(and some humans, even) manage to extrapolate it into a echolocation, being able to pinpoint distance and even form of things using sound waves. Making too much noise for normal hearing results into information about it being caught by who's listening. In case of beings with echolocation... yeaeh, you are screwed, unless you screw it to the max with noises that the one hearing can't bear. Ki-sense: Essentialy, organic living things emanates energy as a result of the reactions needed to be alive. The energy is unique to each living being and carries with it emotion and power level. That energy is the main source of power in lots of anime and manga, and can be felt by who has that ability. To act stealthy against someone sensing Ki, you must be a robot or be able to control your emissions to a state when the senser can't sense you. (For better information, Frieza Saga in Dragon Ball Z essentialy happens because of this...) Overload of the Ki-sense can happen, in cases of a being of much more power than the senser... Touch: information about stuff that's in contact with the body. Beings without it simply can't feel pain or even themselves, what makes hard to conserve health. Also gives the possibility to stay hidden holding in the thing...(Star Wars - Millenium Falcon x Star Destroyer) And so on. So, if we want to consider more than simply vision, a binary system just WON'T be able to do it. And in a procedurally generated universe, surely we can have aliens with a different set of senses!
Keep in mind that this is a 2D game and you cant sneak around people like in other games. I would perfer to look at this "problem" from the other direction. Instead give people the means of detecting stealthed foes, for example sand could be put on the ground to show footprints or some kind of sonar that marks out sounds so you can catch whoever is stealthed. Also since its on the defender to counter stealth there would have to be some penalties to using stealth like wearing no armour or lower carry cap etc.
Still, keep in mind that being a 2d game, most enemies won't hurt you on contact so you will be able to walk through them undetected. Also, maybe they will add a foreground layer, so that you may be able to sneak around players. In fact in pvp foreground is not even needed, just make it so that the sprite of the hidden player is invisible for the ones that are not able to detect it (although effects such as little dust on the ground when moving, or of course attacking, would lead you to know where he is). I agree with the penalties to using stealth, even if only for pure realism, I wouldn't like to see someone with a tremendous two-handed weapon, a complete set of rocket-launchers and a full body armor going around undetected.
Yeah, the inability to go around someone is the big problem here. Especially when you're on the surface, there's no alternate path or anything you can use. Line of sight is a moot point in a 2D game unless accounted for specifically in the level design (and since this game doesn't really have "level design" that's not an option) since the only place you have to be looking is towards the ground on the right and towards the ground on the left. Lighting would also require specific design to work, otherwise it'd just be impossible to sneak on the surface and incredibly easy to sneak underground. The ideas that have sprung up are interesting but they don't get down to the root problem of the stealth lacking much skill or forethought.
That concerns the PVP stealth, and I believe there are lots of possible solutions that have been already mentioned. Hiding the sprite for those who can't see you, and only being detected by sound effects/visual effects. Also, the factors that could be involved in the [being hidden vs not being hidden] could be lighting, which indeed would make it easier to sneak underground (which is pretty logic), sound, which would counter the underground sneaking thing... About the going around issue, I just said it in the post before, you don't get damaged by going through other sprites, so it's perfectly possible to be hidden and move around other characters undetected. What plays a major role in all of this is if there will be a foreground layer or not. If there is, it would easily add skill to hiding, as you wouldn't see the visual effects of hidden people that are underground (they would get covered by the foreground layer), or of people that are hidden in a building or bushes. Which in turn would make the noise factor a really important one too. Hey, maybe you can't see the footprints of that hidden guy who you know is somewhere around, but you can still wait and listen for the footsteps. I don't know, Lighting + Sound + Foreground covers the issue for me. Of course that's a lot to add, but man would it be awesome.
Hmmm... Maybe if someone was sneaking around, and they moved too fast, you would see a vague sort of outline for a second, so you would sort of look there and focus on the sound of footsteps... That way, if you were sneaking/stealthing or whatever you would also have to move slower or risk being discovered. My question is, though, where would you really want to use stealth in SMP?
I'm more talking single player stealth, and the problem is just that it'll be too easy to sneak by enemies, unless there's a line-of-sight deal in which case you'll probably be unable to sneak past them at all, only possibly sneaking up to them, because there really won't be a way to completely sneak past their line of sight when you're both on the ground. Pretty much anything said here still sounds like it'd either break the balance in favor of or against the enemies, or make it completely conditional. I haven't really seen anything that would require much skill or forethought beyond "I can sneak up to it" or "I cannot sneak up to it"
About lines of sight: Maybe stealth items can reduce the size of an enemy's FOV by whatever percentage, that way by straining their eyes they can technically see you if you get it into a small sliver. Realistically, being invisible would affect the area you're standing in.
The way I see it, stealth in a 2D environment can work in ways, first is the "sound" system, like in Deus Ex. The enemies can't see you, but they can hear you. You would have a HUD displaying the sound waves, and how much sound you make. Green is okay, Yellow is careful, and Red means detected. Some enemies might have enhanced hearing as well. Another way, is to jump into the background. You wait for the opponent to pass by and jump back out. This isn't really stealth, but more of an avoiding method. Enemies with super eyesight will be able to spot you. The last option is more of a "can-you-use-it-wisely" scenario. You have a time limit, or energy limit, like the Spy in TF2. For PVE purposes, you just have to time the stealth correctly. In PVP, there would be slight distortions in the place where you move. If you stay still, then you would blend in perfectly. Of course, there would be scenarios in which stealth isn't an option, like a smoky environment, or a barren landscape, or maybe just things clinging on to you. In any case, stealth can be a very problematic feature, but if done right, can bring a whole new level of fun.
