Feedback The new toolbar is terrible

First would like to point out that simple does not mean stupid, as I do know a number of people who are quite simple but are also rather intelligent. As well as there is a point where things become too simple and can also be found as offensive. Also it is just as easy to get offended by being treated like one can't handle figuring anything out.

Second, if they didn't change the old system to make things less confusing to some, why was there a need to redesign the whole hotbar in the first place? The only other reason I can even come up with is some complained that the L/R slot didn't meet all their dual wielding needs, and there would have been no problem if a couple of slots were converted to support it better instead of taking out all the power and flexibility the old bar had. Which by taking this route is essentially forcing dual wielding on everyone at the detriment of those that liked the old bars power and flexibility which is currently gone. And lets be honest, does one really need every single slot to be dedicated to dual wielding?

And @Sean Mirrsen covered this point quite well.

 

It's not so bad, since you can place a single item in multiple slots, meaning you can have your Graxus Wavestabber in both your medical slot AND your flashlight slot. It's much more intuitive & convenient.
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Basically, the new system has removed the need to select your L & R hands separately by placing whatever combinations you'll want in the slots. When you're running from a foe, it's much faster and you'll never make mistakes.

 

Well, get your favorite sword and gun and learn how to use the hotbar then.

 

He literally talked about the "lowest common denominator" and how "games keep getting dumber", so I think it's fair to say he meant stupid. It's just classic angry gamer nonsense - how dare games get easier to use? Next they'll be letting children play them.

It's pretty disingenuous to keep asking "BUT WHAT IF I DON'T WANT TO DUAL WIELD?" when the core of your argument is that the old bar is better because you can dual wield more. It almost makes it seem as though this isn't about the actionbar at all.

 

Coming from someone who is studying game design as well as UI design, I am gonna give you my opinion on it. I played a lot of beta and took a break and just recently jumped back in 1.0. The hotbar is new to me and I like it a lot, more so than the old one actually. Now you seem to dislike it a lot but it really is not that bad. And in game or UI design sometimes it is a matter of trade offs. Sure the older one allowed for more stuff, however it was definitely clunky and not easy to use for some casual players. This new one does not allow for many slots but is very intuitive. It is pretty much having multiple class set ups that you scroll through. And looking at it in a design perspective it makes a lot more sense. It forces the player to really decide what it is they want at a moments notice in their bar. No longer can you have 5-7 slots dedicated to weapons, but now at most your three best weapon classes.

This is not to say that it is perfect, because my two gripes with the bar system is that 1) if you have consumables and you run through them, the item disappears from the bar instead of fading out and saying 0. Making it so if you make more health packs for example, you have to reset the item on the bar. 2) the fact that I cant have a flash light placed with my building materials, making it so I have to have it in separate sections. I just wanna be able to place dirt and see where im placing it.

But to sum it up, sometimes when designing something you need to make trade offs for what you want and I think chuckle fish made the right decision limiting what people can have in their bars and consequentially making it more intuitive for players to use.

 

Precisely. There is a reason games for children are less complex than games for... well, the age group "above children" is pretty blurry. Games are supposed to be a stimulating experience, in one way or another, and only a certain level of complexity can be intellectually stimulating past a certain point. Complexity, mind, not convolution or difficulty. There's a reason a common complaint leveled against multiplatform games on PC is "the interface is simple/dumb" - it's because PC as a platform presupposes by itself a particular degree of interface complexity, owing mainly to its primary input device having anywhere between 10 and 20 times the amount of buttons a typical gamepad controller might have, and likewise it presumes that a PC user will necessarily have a certain degree of proficiency in using that device, otherwise they would choose a console as their gaming platform. Thus, any interface designed for a fundamentally more compact, more limited control scheme, is seen by PC-centric players as simplistic, needlessly limited, and, where attempts are made at adding complexity, needlessly convoluted.

This was the reason why, from the first moments I laid eyes on this ascended brainfart of a hotbar design, my strongest impression of it was that it was made specifically for controllers, as it favors straightforward, one-button interactions with the interface, simultaneously axing proper support for both full keyboard, and mouse-based functionality.

Unfortunately for my faith in Chucklefish as developers, about the first proper dev response we ever heard was the vehement denial of the new hotbar development having anything to do with controller support. Think of that what you will.

By referring to the lowest common denominator I specifically mean your own way of saying it - "the average player". Games can't be always aimed at allowing the average player to grasp them intuitively. Without interfaces that can't be deciphered at-a-glance we'd never have most RTS games. Homeworld, especially. Nor would we have the modern genre of tactical strategy. How do you make a player intuitively grasp the concepts of cover, the notion of chained orders, the mechanics of out-of-turn actions? More to the point, have you seen how many tooltips there are in XCOM?

Because that's what makes a good game, a great game. Setting challenges before the player, giving him tools to overcome it, explaining how the tools are to be used, and then not interfering in his attempts to solve the challenges. The hotbar of an action-adventure game is a tool. The hotbar we had in Starbound before gave us plenty of tools, was inobtrusive and provided a small challenge in itself, but only the brightest and most determined of us actually figured it out, because it was never explained by anyone or anything in-game.
The new hotbar we got, gives us nothing but frustrations - it's still never explained, half the people seem to miss the fact that it has two halves (despite seemingly being intuitive), half the visible slots on it are fake (if you're using two-handed items, which are the majority), the items-as-shortcuts mechanic (that is absolutely required for it to work) is basically implemented in the most half-assed of all half-assed ways, without any required supporting features, and on top of it all the whole thing has nowhere near the level of functionality of the old hotbar.

So, yeah.

The point is not whether or not you want to dual-wield. The old hotbar gave us the freedom to choose. The new one does not, in more ways than one. And in both cases, the old one was superior - for single-handed items it provided the free combinations, for two-handed items it could actually fit them all on the row, and without fake slots inbetween.

The entire problem, however, is that all of it was absolutely unnecessary.

Name me, please, just 2 things the old hotbar would not have been able to do as well as the new one, with just two(three) simple changes.
1. Every slot can optionally have 2 one-handed items put into it, automatically becoming an LR slot.
2. The hotbar is expanded to 12 row slots, and a hotkey is added to physically swap the items between the two halves (1-6 and 7-=).
(The third is the items-as-shortcuts mechanic, because it's functionally necessary to allow for dual-wielding sets.)

Assume that the center L/R slots are kept but the hotbar is redesigned in whatever way is necessary to keep them and the manipulator mode icons out of the way of the main row (we have a very good thread somewhere around here with design options being discussed).

 

Just gonna say here that you seem to be very anti-casual, for lack of a better term.

I'm nothing but a casual player. I don't want to have decipher my damn interface for "a challenge". My interface should be something i use to overcome a challenge, rather than a whole separate one.

Interfaces should be simple and intuitive, because that is what makes a good interface.

 

You're trolling me, right? You didn't just unironically type out hundreds of words about how PC gamers are better than console players because their UIs are more complicated - it's a wind up, yeah?

 

The only reason the old bar was unintuitive is because CF did not take the time to point out its special features. The standard 10 slot hotbar doesn’t really take much explaining. However, the special L/R slot in the middle did need a little explaining which was lacking. The neat thing is by playing a lot of different games it teaches one to look a little farther into things that seem strange or different, and that gaming instinct is how many of us figured out the powerful, yet also simple L/R slot.

Using Ironsquids example, of using the wavestabber with med item or flashlight being easier with the new bar shows that was trying to use the more complicated individual hand selection instead of knowing about that could simply put it in the R slot and it would automatically pair with every applicable item on the rest of the hotbar. How is that not simple to use to great effect? The failure here is expecting everything to be able to be picked up with no explanation.

There is more I would like to get into that happened between this post and my last, but doing so on a phone is more pain than it is worth. So will save that for when can use my PC.

 

"Casual" is a misnomer. Or rather, it's a term that's used rather wrongly most of the time, as if it's a juxtaposition of "complex".

I am not anti-casual. Casual games, and casual gamers, are their own thing. Hell, by the standards of the industry I am a casual gamer - I don't devote a lot of time to my games, I prefer instant gratification for my effort rather than a payoff later down the line. What I am against, is oversimplification. There is such a thing as tutorials, there is such a thing as interface conventions, there is such a thing as platform-appropriate control layouts. I don't like seeing the potential of good games wasted, just because someone decided that their audience deserves to be treated like children.

I said no such thing. I described the situation with the PC/console interface split fairly accurately, in my opinion. The choice of input method defines the nature of the player. An interface designed for a keyboard and mouse, if forced onto a player preferring a controller, would be described as obtuse and unwieldy, and any complexity requiring modifier keys and precise movements would be incomprehensible, obstructive. An interface designed for a controller, if forced onto a player preferring a mouse and keyboard, will be, conversely, described as simplistic and exceedingly limited, and complex actions that would feel natural with dual analog sticks and fourteen buttons close at hand, would mostly feel confusing and awkward.

Each control scheme has its place, each can work wonderfully given a proper implementation. It does not do to discard the advantages the platform you're working on gives you, in favor of advantages of another platform - especially if, by own admission, you're actually not going for the latter.

True, they should be intuitive where possible. But any interface seen for the first time is unintuitive - the reason interfaces can be intuitive at all, is because each platform, and each genre, supplies its own conventions, and any deviation from those conventions requires a proper explanation on behalf of the game, in order to be understood. As it happens, conventions for the PC platform and the action-adventure-construction-RPG genre, specifically for the "quickbar" design, are typically established as a single row of 10 slots, selected with hotkeys 1 through 0 or direct mouse action, that each corresponds to 1 item previously placed in that slot.
Starbound, being a game with extra capabilities, requires extra elements for the hotbar. And... between a 10-item, single row hotbar with 2 extra mousebutton-shaped superslots and three special hotkeys (Shift, X, Z), and a 6-plus-6-item, double but half-invisible, double-slot hotbar with two equally unexplained special hotkeys, I think the former breaks conventions less, and requires less explanation to a player who has seen this kind of game before. All it takes, is a short introductory mission.



And my previous challenge still stands.

 

I hate to break this to you, but some of this game's audience are children.

 

Fair enough. Some of Kerbal Space Program's audience are children. If a game can manage to explain its interface, along with rocketry and orbital mechanics, to children, Starbound can explain to them how to use a slightly modified conventional hotbar.


And my challenge still stands, for everyone who still says the new hotbar is in all respects better than the old:

 

The new hotbar actually remembers the items that I have linked to it. so when I make torches after I have run out, I do not have to link them to the hotbar again.

I can also have multiple offhand setups in case I wanted to change up fighting style, holster weapons or just use alternate items, before, my silly knife was always getting in the way, angering guards.

Having it between two sets of six that I can toggle can also mean I can have a build set and fighting set of items that I can use. Before the hotbar was a jumble that made sense only to me(0 for my spear, = for my torches...4 for my cobblestone...), and I had to guess at most of the controls(I didn't know how to holster, for example)

In the end I still have 12 slots. 1st slot is still where my main weapon goes.

 

Hopefully we'll see some kind of improvement to this hotbar soon, even if we can't get the old one back.

 

You're insufferable. Yes, there are games which require a complicated interface and they teach people to use that interface and this is a thing that happens. Starbound is a run and jump platformer with simplistic combat where there is no actual need to switch between four weapons at a time, so they opted not to make a tutorial for the old, complicated, unintuitive action bar and instead replace it with a better one that doesn't require a tutorial. I'm sorry this somehow offended you to the very core of your being.

It doesn't. That's actually one of my main complaints about it (though I think the old one was the same?). What you're seeing is, you run out of torches, make more torches and they go into the first empty hotbar slot. If you click the padlock to the right of the bar they won't go in there when you craft them.

Like, there are some legitimate suggestions that could be made to improve the action bar but none of them are "Raaarrghhh, it's terrible, they murdered the old system and are making children dumber, get rid of this NOOWWWWW!".

 

The system is being dumbed down, no one is suggesting it is, in any way affecting the intelligence of the player; but that's besides the point. Plenty of players including Hawklaser and Sean Mirrsen have provided compelling arguments against the new hotbar, which (surprise!) I'm not fond of either. I've abandoned Starbound like many others, because I don't think a good system is one so unfamiliar that I have to force myself to enjoy (or slam my keyboard against my monitor).

I'm not sure if Chucklefish designed the hotbar for console, but it is likely, however I know exactly why they're keeping it. You know that feeling you get when you make something you're proud of, but you know it isn't your best work? Then if someone comes along to criticize it, it instantly becomes your most treasured possession? Chucklefish takes it farther. They stand up and say, "Look at this hateful person, who violently insulted the thing I put my very soul into!" They get everyone on their side to mock the the critic, calling them hateful for providing constructive criticism, Those who weren't there to witness at first, quickly stand behind the accuser.

In conclusion, I'd suggest those who like the new bar, to retry the old one, but Steam for whatever reason doesn't support downdating, maybe just reconsider why you actually prefer it.

 

This actually happened did it?

 

Hardcoded, simply put, means that there is no native way to edit it. There's a scripting API that allows you to make and edit your own scripts, there's ways you can manipulate files to make your own items and weapons and races, etc. but the hotbar has no API and no loose configuration files you can edit. It's embedded inside the .exe itself and there's no way to edit it without somehow breaking the game's encryption and getting into the engine itself, which would be a monstrous task and might get you sued. Or perhaps if a 3rd party program somehow manages to add in an API for it, but that's unlikely.

This alone would solve this whole line of nonsense and arguing. Those who like the hotbar could keep it, and those who don't could install any of the multiple hotbar overhauls that would pop up.
Problem solved! But it's never that easy, of course.

A good example of this, if a bit heavy-handed, is newer Bethesda games.
Skyrim's vanilla UI was so disliked by a lot of the PC community that they made a mod which is one of the most widely-used, SkyUI, specifically to overwrite it with something that works nicely with a mouse. The original interface was designed with consoles in mind and as a result was incredibly clunky when one had the versatility of a mouse and keyboard at hand.

Fallout 4, as another example, was limited to 4 dialogue options because it copied, among other games, Mass Effect's ABXY dialogue interface, with each button corresponding to a choice. Now, the dialogue in general was sort of a downward spiral compared to previous games in the series, but it was especially noticable in that previous games, there could be 5+ options easily. Due to the interface being on a small wheel-like design instead of a list-style menu as well, it made clicking the options feel a bit strange, and made many people feel the arrow keys were a nessessity for using it.
Another tradeoff was that due to the smaller, circular design, they had to shorten the descriptions of what you will say to small, single word descriptors which greatly limit roleplaying potential due to not actually knowing what your character will say should you respond "Sarcastic." Mods to fix this showed that having full-length sentences on the wheel-menu was horrifying to look at, so a list-style dialogue interface was modded back in. Unfortunately, still limited to four choices. This, and the fact that in vanilla, text descriptions are so small, also screws up modding, as it means any mods that add dialogue will have to support both systems due to the popularity of the overhaul. Generally a lose-lose, especially since console users were completely fine with the list system in previous games.

 

Is it possible the devs could make it so it isnt hardcoded for modders in the future?

 

I understand the preference for the old interface, but I personally do not share it. Throughout all the time I spent with previous builds, I always felt like I found ways to work within the old system, but I never felt like it was working for me. This was especially noticeable for me when I took breaks from the game for weeks or months and then came back to it. No matter how much time I spent with the game previously, I still had to re-acclimate to the old hotbar. This is something I have not experienced in any of the other games I have seen mentioned in this thread (Terraria, Skyrim, or even Kerbal Space Program). While I too am irked by how inefficient the new system can be for certain tasks, especially when it comes to building, this is more than compensated for my the absolute certainty that I won't ever face relearning the UI every time I revisit the game in the future.

I'd like to see some changes. For example, it would personally suit my style of play if the second set of hotbar slots were 10 single-wield slots rather than a second set of six dual-wield slots. I can see there being disadvantages to that though, especially for a new user learning the ropes.

Another thing that I would find useful is a toggle on the inventory to force all hotbar items to the top of the inventory when hitting auto-sort. The highlight around items that are being used in the hotbar isn't that great given that the item-rarity borders compete for the same visual attention. Differentiating the weapons I am actively using and the ones I am not isn't as efficient as it could be.

Even if the suggestions I have made above are not implemented though, I am overall very pleased with how the new interface works overall. But no UI is going to work for everyone, and I am a strong advocate for choice. I think it would be worthwhile for the devs to consider making the UI more mod friendly in future builds.

I do think it behoves some of the critics of the new UI to consider the tone of some of the rhetoric in this thread. It's fine to dislike the new UI, even strongly, but as someone who doesn't share that opinion, I find many of the posts defending the old UI here to be highly patronising, and not at all conducive to constructive debate.