Small universes

Discussion in 'Other' started by Awwkaw, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    so Tiy mentioned in the stream today that theyll have a map for where to travel, so i thought: "why not make pvp across 5 or more planets" this would need the ability to make a small universe

    Basicly it would make you able to use all starbound have to offer for pvp, youd be able to make the defense structures ofterraria, while also being attacked from more than one planet, and be able to (when implenented) fight in space using the space ships

    EDIT: theres been some confusion of what i meant, but heres something someone said that clearyfies it pretty good:

     
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  2. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    Do you mean small galaxies? Or perhaps small solar systems?

    What a universe means is not what you described here. The universe consists of a huge number of galaxies. Each galaxy consists of an incredible number of stars. Around some stars solar systems with planets are formed.

    There is only one universe as far as we know it.
     
  3. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    well yes and no, (and i know that theres a lot of stuff in a universe)

    I mean a small "site" consisting of a few planets/systems where you can make soem interplanetary pvp, but if you can travel through the hole universe in starbound you can't do that. if we think that each world (like when you make a neiw character and go into a newly generated world) we may assume that you get a new universe, then maybe you could generate a smaal universe, consisting of maybe only 5 planets/stars So i mean small universe/world/ whatever they call it.
     
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  4. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    No, there isn't "a lot of stuff in the universe". You don't understand. The universe consists of ALL the stuff that exists. Universe is the word defining the whole everything.
    We live in a planet. This planet is part of a system of planets that all turn around the sun. Our sun with all these planets is constantly turning around the centre of our galaxy(around a black hole), and this galaxy consists of billions of stars, many with their own planetary systems. All the galaxies in the universe are also constantly moving "outwards" due to the inflation of our universe. The universe is the largest system of objects that can be. Every scrap of matter and energy that we know belongs to a single universe.
    This little fun tool below might help you understand better:
    http://htwins.net/scale2/

    Making a "small universe" doesn't make sense when talking about physics, because there is only one universe.
    Of course, there's the multiverse theory, but I won't get into that. Especially since it's often considered not scientific.


    Though i do like the idea of having huge battleground between more than one planet, if that's what you're suggesting?
    You should have named your thread "interplanetary pvp" or something. I just came here because i saw the unfathomable name of "small universes" and wanted to see what this might be about.
     
  5. Pikkon53

    Pikkon53 Void-Bound Voyager

    Well, a small universe is accomplishable simply by making it consist of only 5 planets. With nothing else in all of existance, that universe would be by comparison pretty tiny. Then a PVP server with that as its universe would be properly sized.
     
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  6. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    Multiverse.
    I just blew your mind.
    I also feel like getting into a debate about this. Universe is a spacial defining term like City or Country. It's just MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH larger. If you want to define EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES IN ALL POSSIBILITIES, you call it Existence. If something doesn't exist (which is impossible due to our universe being theoretically infinite, and thus having all possible things happen inside it), it is not in Existence, no matter where you look. Time, space, and probability of each.

    But seriously, what he's saying is he wants to make it IMPOSSIBLE to travel outside of a certain area of planets in the case of PVP. Optionally, I would hope.
    I'm sure that if this isn't implemented, mods will do it for us.
     
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  7. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    Yeah, i didn't understand about being unable to travel outside a certain area during PvP. Just didn't think about it that way. So you're probably right.

    The rest is slightly to really off-topic as answer to the universe thingy.

    I won't debate it, what i write here doesn't deny what you say, I'm just giving what i know on the subject. Also, i mentioned multiverse theory in my original post. Even so, the multiverse theory is based on nothing more than guessing. There are no observations or any other shred of proof to back it up, and thus many consider that theory not scientific.
    So no, you didn't "blow my mind".
    Universe is a place. Existence is something more than a place. And while the universe is everything, there might be other dimensions. Those dimensions would be in the same place, but differentiated by events that did or did not take place. And there's also time to consider. A line is an infinity amount of dots. A flat surface is an infinite amount of lines. A 3d space is an infinite amount of flatness'. Time is an infinite amount of 3d spaces. So should each 3d space of which time consists be considered another universe? I don't kow.
    Tell me of something outside the universe if the universe isn't everything. Note that i already mentioned other dimensions which aren't really outside, but are rather other variants of the same universe.
    The amount of energy and matter is constant in the universe. So far, there is nothing to deny it. Thus it is more than likely that there is only 1 universe. Otherwise at least some matter or energy should find it's way into other universes. If not, it's impossible to prove or deny it.

    Also, i personally don't believe that there are other variants of our universe depending on the events that did or did not take place. Everything in the universe works because of certain laws of physics. So if a meteor hits another meteor, they send thousands of chips of stone in every direction. And since they all obey the same laws of physics, you can count where each chip will go and what influence will it have on other objects. It is impossible that even one chip of stone would go somewhere else. So there is no possibility of a different universe. The same with everything else. This way, theoretically you could count and predict everything that will happen in the universe. Of course, the sheer amount of factors to include and the sheer amount of data make it impossible practically. By the time you would be done counting where one chip of stone will go, it will already be there, and i'm not even talking about the rest of the chips. Or what the rest off the universe is doing at that time. Humans and animals work the same way. Your brain sends a certain impulse to your muscles depending on the environment and conditions. If some nervous cell is missing or is placed in a different spot, that signal might be completely different from person too person. So basically, using physics you can predict everything that will happen in the universe. Of course, that is if you have the right data. At least that's how it would be scientifically. But there's also the factor of human spirit, which might, or might not have any influence. That's where this gets tricky. And that's where what each person believes comes in. Even thought scientifically, those beliefs are also countable using physics... You see why i called it "tricky", even though calling this tricky is like calling a mountain slightly bigger than an ant.


    So yes, it is possible that there are more dimensions. But it all depends on the human spirit factor.
    And the multiverse theory is possible. Even though it is impossible to know whether it's right or wrong, because the amount of matter and energy is constant in our universe, thus travel between universes or observations of other universes would not be possible anyway.

    Didn't think about that possibility. Thanks for clarifying that. Then other servers would be like other dimensions.

    Yeah, sorry, i misunderstood that. Now i get it. It's one of those simple things that you don't understand, that later hits you right in the face with simplicity when you finally understand. It makes me feel stupid for not understanding earlier.
    So then yes, I do think that it's a good idea. Even though the short-range teleporter video makes me think that likely this won't be implemented.
     
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  8. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    i do know that, i'm not that stupid, i just don't really care about formulating me as good as you want me to, perfectionist, when you can travel to everywhere in a universe, then it is a small universe, else youll be able to cheat, and that's why we need a small universe

    Exactly that was my hole point Tahnks :rofl:
     
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  9. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    Thank you,
     
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  10. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    Dear god wall of text... Give me a bit. Read it in about 30 min, cause i'm editing it as I go.
    1. Meant as a joke anyway. Moot point.
    2. Yes.
    3. Alternate Dimensions are what I called Probability. Most people identify another dimension as a timeline in which SOMETHING DIFFERENT happened, no matter how small, from the Alpha (our, from our point of view) timeline. It makes far more sense to call these alternate timelines, and call what you called a dimension simply another universe. Because Dimensions aren't other timelines, they are more like

    That's the best explanation of dimensions I know. However this isn't the original video, I couldn't be bothered to find it so fast.
    Anyway, Probability begins around the 5th dimension, at 5:00 (around there)
    4. No. These are probability. You were calling these dimensions earlier.
    5. Probability.
    6. Nothing has disproven it, but this doesn't mean that energy is exactly 100% constant throughout one point in time. The theoretical particle Tachyon travels faster than the speed of light, enabling it to move backward in time. This means that the energy of it is not always in the same time, and thus, in one point of time, the energy is not constant. I just felt like saying this. This also makes Time Travel entirely possible though. And travel to alternate probabilities too.
    7. The position and motion of a particle are mutually exclusive, making this false. We could certainly take some incredibly accurate guesses as to what will happen, as technology allows (accounts for the future technologies), but we cannot be 100% certain of all that will happen because of this.
    And as well, the Human Brain (though possible to influence) is capable of true random, unlike machines. Machines require a system or "seed" (Think Minecraft worlds) to create things that are random, and they will never be the same, theoretically. The fact is, no matter what you do, these worlds will always be predictable, and there will always be a point at which you have created so many worlds that you are highly likely to get a world you have seen before.
    But a Human Brain, being capable of true random, is able to do things differently when given the same set of instructions. If you tell 10 exact clones of a person to do the same thing with 100% the exact same items/particles/patterns around them, there will ALWAYS be some difference between them all.
    I probably should have read ahead some, because you basically said something similar the next few sentences.

    STILL WORKING ON THIS!

    8. This one isn't directed at anything in particular.
    Just a final explanation.
    Human nature is PREDICTABLE, but it is not and never will be EXACT. And by this, we can assume that alternate PROBABILITIES (can also be read Timelines, I GUESS) exist. We just can't prove it yet.

    SO THERE YOU HAVE IT. MY OWN PERSONAL WALL OF TEXT.
     
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  11. Auraknight

    Auraknight Weight of the Sky

    not-with-standing the twin walls of text above me,
    it could ba a far flung battle scared solar system,
    (far flung, so that you don't accidently stumble upon it,)
    that would have varying ammounts of planets,
    it would have a lot of asteroids,
    and other such stuff,
    to allow for the cration of planets in developer mode,
    to allow for bigger games of PVP
     
  12. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    well, you need to have it somewhere where you can't go to anything else, else people can leave the system to cheat (you can't keep an eye on everyone in iterplanetary pvp) that's why i suggest a complete universe, consisting of only 5 planets, that way ther'll be nothing else. :rofl:
     
  13. Crazyon

    Crazyon Master Astronaut

    That wouldnt be a universe though, it would be a solar system....
    When you see the word universe you think of the infinite amount of planets, stars, asteroids, suns, and things that we do not know of...
    I understand what you want for pvp but why not have it so you tell others what group of planets you are in so you could fight?
    I have no idea how big multiplayer servers will be, but a universe consisting of only 5 planets would be dull.
    When you say 5 planets are you suggesting of selecting a solar system in the universe and dedicate it solely to pvp?
    That would make sense...
     
  14. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    no, it ould b a univers, sinc thre ould b nothing ls, a universe if all, if you can tavl to all the is in the universe, and you only can travel to 5 planets then those five planets are the hole universe. theres no more to it, yes the universe would consist of a single solar system, but that solar system would be the hole universe. i don't suggest dedicating a solar system to pvp, people would be able to cheat and travel to other systems, no i talk about a litterally small universe and nothing else. you can travel to the hole universe in starbound, you can only travel to 5 planets, those five planets are the hole universe, have i reapeated my self enough (sorry for sounding rough, but it's the second time somemone says that i don't know that a universe is in the same trhead, you know you get bored of being called stupid pretty fast)
     
  15. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    3. The word "dimensions" has more than one meaning. Fifth dimension is only theoretical so far. We don't know what it might be. It might be probability, but there are other theories as well.
    5. That's not really "outside" our universe. If you travel to the edge of the universe, and then cross it, i don't think you'll find another universe of another probability. I personally think that the fifth dimensions is something more complex than probability.
    6. Exactly, the "theoretical" particle. So everything beyond first sentence is an "if". It's a straw house.
    I'll use quotes for point 7.
    That is wrong. If everything is exactly the same, it will trigger the exactly same signals to be sent through the exact brain and the same things to happen. Of course, a situation where everything is truly the same is impossible. I'm not sure on what did you base that "difference" on, because i can't see any arguments supporting it.
    Depends. What do you define as "true random". We react to our surroundings depending on signals sent to our minds. Those include sound, sight, feeling, taste, smell. According to those signals received about the environment around us certain other signals are triggered depending on the way each individual cell is standing. If at least one cell is different, then the signal that goes through our minds will also be different. If the environment is exactly the same, it will send exactly the same signals through you eyes/ears/nose/etc. and they will arrive at the exactly same brain, where they will, of course, trigger exactly the same signals(if the brain is also exactly the same), other things are impossible, because they would be against . laws of physics.
    Also, i heard somewhere that scientists managed to imitate the brain of a cat using a supercomputer. Only the computer worked ≈100 times slower than the brain of a cat actually works.

    8. If you have all the data, you can count exactly which signals will go through which cells in your brain. Thus it is exactly predictable.
    Anyway, this is all just chasing the Jack'o'Wisps because it's all just unproven(and some impossible to prove or deny) theories(some contradicting each other). And there's also religion and human spirit factor to add. So this argument is kind of pointless. All we really know is that there are 4 or more dimensions, and that so far we haven't found evidence of much else. There were tries to prove or deny the existence of other dimensions, but so far nothing has worked. Of course, there was this one time when they counted that in the hadron collider or some other similar device some particles reached above the speed of light, which, of course, seems wrong. There are 2 possibilities why this could happen: 1. A mistake with the timer was made. 2. Some theorised that the particles might have made a "shortcut" through a different dimension. So while they actually travelled at the speed of light(reaching higher speed is impossible and physically doesn't really make sense and would deny many theories and observations that have already taken root), they travelled a smaller distance, so they got through the same place faster than other particles. And that's the closest thing we have as proof for anything in this discussion, and it's related only by a distance. So this discussion is kind of pointless.

    I don't feel like revising this into something more understandable or continuing this discussion since it's all pointless anyway. None of this we can prove or deny. It's all just trying to catch the wind.
     
  16. Crazyon

    Crazyon Master Astronaut

    Eh, Im gonna sound like a grammer nazi, but hole should be whole...

    Personally I dont like the idea of a small universe, it limits exploration....but whatever :p
    Oh and dont worry, I do not care at all about you sounding rough.
     
  17. Tea Mate

    Tea Mate Existential Complex

    Perhaps he has problems with his keyboard?

    Even so, i just thought of something.
    Wouldn't it be better to just isolate a certain place in your game world for PvP? That way, you could choose between which planets you want to fight. When PvP is done with, the isolation stops.
    Even so, i don't think battle between spaceships will be possible.
     
  18. Awwkaw

    Awwkaw Starship Captain

    sorry about the grammar, i'm not english, and my keybord doesn't work proberbly, so yeahr.

    I did'nt mean this for the main single player campain to explore, of course you would need the ability to generate bigger universes aswell, but having a small 5 planet universe will be good for pvp and mapmaking, i think it should work like the terraria where you get options (number of planets, planet size, infinite and so on)

    maybe like that, maybe like ctg in terraria, (you'd be able to go everywhere) but with teams of 20 then you split out into miniteams, that take one planet each, and then work together when attacking and defending, this way youd never know whered you get attacked, and you'd need defence everywhere :rofl:
     
  19. Crazyon

    Crazyon Master Astronaut

    Thats what I said about selecting a solar system only for pvp! :D
     
  20. Relinies

    Relinies King Homestuck III

    All we're talking is theoretical science.
    And fine, discussion end.
    Except, you're wrong about me having no arguments to prove the differences in 10 exactly same situations.
    The human brain, being capable of random, which I did explain, causes DIFFERENT SIGNALS to be sent no matter what. I'll explain better tonight cause I gotta go.
     

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