Chat Hels Chatroom IV: Helen High Water

well the definitions of "man" and "woman" are a difficult topic, and not always exclusive of each other. it's reasonable to believe that some people do not feel represented by either label. c:

 

wait i'm confused, who's forcing anything? o.o

 

Look, when it comes to gender options, enough is enough. If you have to get this detailed, you might as well classify yourself by name.

(Heh, unown F. Nice. And Stargate.)
(Note: I'm joking here. But if there is a chart anywhere near this big for gender options, then I'll quickly change my mind about this being a joke.)

 

F--k if I know, and the same if I care.
If they want to be gender neutral, by all means, they should be.
I just don't agree with the government bending to their wills because otherwise they'll feel like they're discriminated against or something.

I like that chart.
At this rate it's gonna be accurate too. All these "I identify as an X" jokes are becoming less jokes and more serious by the day.[/quote]

 

I wasn't aware being included in a greeting was inconveniencing the government so much. is it really so much to ask for? :c

 

Nonono, quoting myself:

Amsterdam's municipality is trying to be more sensitive about people who are gender neutral. So they want to make their letters more neutral.
Which was something I don't agree with.

 

Why not? Do these letters not apply to neutral people?
it's not like they're making it more complicated - it's two less words to print.

 

No, no, I see where he's coming from. They had the perfect chance to have Amsterdammed be official, but they gave it away.
At least, I assume that's the problem. My brain might just be fixated on that though, and is just ignoring all other possibilities.

 

What if I go there while I'm from Rotterdam, just visiting there, and I get such a letter? Or if someone else is from Groningen and they go there for a business trip?
Should we just ignore them? They want to appease gender neutral people but they'll end up creating different separations.

"Dear Sir or Madam" is perfectly fine, but some people just have to class themselves as special snowflake gender neutrals and the government just has to bend to it.
Hell, they wanted to make gender neutral public toilets. How do you make gender neutral toilets? Weren't men and women's toilets made to separate them by gender? Can they both walk into gender neutral toilets? That's going to be abused, especially in Amsterdam.

Not to mention other gender neutrals in other cities will demand the same and it will spread over here too.

Edit: Before I bring up any wrong impressions by the way, don't take this all as hate against gender neutral people.
If they want to be gender neutral, again, by all means they should be. It's just that the government is trying to change things to appease such a small mass, without really thinking of what other separations it might bring.

Besides, the civil servants were only advised to do this, not ordered to. It could very well be nearly nobody will do it.

 

I think we're getting confused here. We seem to be thinking of different peoples. You think they're trying to say "everyone", but i thought they were trying to "everyone who lives in amsterdam".

Also i think it's offensive to call all neutrals "special snowflakes", as i said before, not all definitions of 'male and female' are exclusive of each other; there is a possibility for people to not feel represented by "sir" or "madam". The government has to make it clear that they're not just talking to the men and women, otherwise neutrals may try to argue that the notices don't apply to them since they were not addressed.

Personally i'm thinking it's really pathetic that people are upset that the government are removing two words in order to be more inclusive.

 

You're right, it's meant to those living in Amsterdam. Though this might very well also affect normal public letters.
And I guess I wasn't all inclusive. "Dear Amsterdammers" is one of the advises, but also such terms as "Dear people", "Dear attendees" (or "Dear present people"?) and "Dear residents of X".
I'm not going to not call them "Special snowflakes" though, and although I agree that not all definitions are exclusive to each other, we are all still born as man or woman. Go get it switched if you don't like it, but don't start wailing for gender neutrality about things that are either so generic that it was never meant to insult (the addressing of letters) or specifically made to separate genders because putting them together is not a good idea (toilets).

Pathetic as I may be to you then, I'm going to stand by my words. They're not making it more inclusive, they're just trying to stay on everyone's good sides.

Don't kill me for that pls.

I'm off to do the groceries. I'll respond to you later if you said anything. Otherwise, well, y'know, I have no reason to continue the discussion.

Baaai~

 

Good nirn, here's a picture of a fox on a beach

How are people today?

 

I'm... not exactly sure why that would be the case. It's traditional, and I would assume ingrained enough into society that you can figure out, when you say the traditional greeting of being courteous to anyone I would assume that everyone gets that it's directed at anyone.
The way I see it, arguing that it doesn't include someone because of gender is kind of nitpicking. (Also, now I want to know what the respectful way to address a gender neutral person is. If you're really willing to nitpick that far, it's worth actually looking at a simple solution.)

 

nirning all

 

I'm sorry if i sounded angry. I did not mean to call you pathetic, rather the action itself. I understand your viewpoint. There *is* a special snowflake problem, but i do not believe this issue is anywhere near that.

also can i just pick apart this phrase for a second?

That's not necessarily true, some people are born intersex. Really, genders are just social constructs. No-one has agreed on what the definition of gender is - and every answer has exceptions. But the definition doesn't really matter. We should just respect a person's own labels more than society's labels. (To a degree, i mean. Attack helicopters are a step too far.)

If it's nitpicking, surely we want to avoid that by being vaguer and more inclusive? We don't want neutral people to think these rules don't apply to them if they're not addressed.

(also the way we address a gender neutral person isn't decided yet - people have not yet come to a consensus. personally, i think we should use "they/them")

 

Really? Like, genetically? How does that work?

That really doesn't help with my question. "Greetings Sir." "Greetings Madam." "Greetings Them" just doesn't match up at all.
How can I show respect?

I feel like that at least should not by any means hold up with legal systems. 'I got a letter addressed to my address, addressed to "Sir or Madam" so it clearly couldn't have been addressed to me.'

Either way, genetically at least there are only 3 possible options, XX, XY, or YY. Order doesn't matter, and to the best of my knowledge no other chromosome types would work. (also to the best of my knowledge XX doesn't work.) Supposing there is another chromosome type then I would assume it would essentially be a broken chromosome, making a eunuch. Leaving you with three possible genders to classify people under. Male, Female, or other/none/error. I'm fine with people re-classifying themselves, you can do stuff to change your physical gender, (Gender change surgery) you can do stuff to change your aesthetic gender, (Dress as the opposite gender) and you could do stuff to change your societal gender. (Get others to refer to you as the other gender) I'm fine with all those, but I would assume each one to be changing from one of those three to another of those three which is why I'm encouraging of just expanding that greeting a little bit. You can raise respect of that third option, or you can lower respect to everyone else. I would rather go for a respectful option rather than a disrespectful one.

 

You can greet a gender neutral person the same way you greet a stranger on the internet. "Friend" is a good one, or you could use their name. Personally, i like to use "mortal".

Sorry but that's not true. Firstly, XX is the typical female chomosones, and i'm unaware of any YY mutation, which is probably the one you meant. Secondly, there are many, many mutations of those genes. There is single X, single Y, XXX, XXY, XYY, XXXY, XXXXY... Loads!

Here's a clicky for more information! c:
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

 

why are we going into genetics at this hour?