Girls looking more like girls

Yanno, simplest option would be a gender-neutral tag right alongside the others. One with all of the options of male/female but maybe with another toggle for bodyshape. Easy-peasy and gives everyone what they want.

I've actually sent Tiy a request for this via Twitter, as I think it's important enough to make something out of. Who knows how many DMs he gets from fans, but it might spur something.

 

Couldn't help noticing all the discussion about the ways men and women are different.

I'm not saying it's scientifically accurate and you should take it as fact or anything, but this article is still an interesting read concerning the subject.

Anywho, agreed with Sheez, here. Just a third "gender neutral" option would probably work best.

 

I'll stand by this response to the OP's suggestion of resizing the legs/arms:

If by then you still can't tell if you have a male or female character I'm sorry but all hope is lost for you lol j/k.

 

I found this large debate kinda overblown...I think what one person asked at one point is they want to have the ability to make a androgynous character .... not genderless or anything like that. Like me IRL I wear uni-sex jackets cause 1: I like how they look 2: How I look in them 3: How they feel to wear. I'm not trans, or genderless or anything. I just feel comfortable in clothes that aren't masculine, but aren't super feminine either.

However all of that is a moot point, cause of the pixel limitation on characters >.> Just give the dudes the option of having feminine-esk style hair cuts, and the girls the option of masculine-esk style hair cuts. Or heck simplify it further, just let either option have ALL hair types you have made and ALL clothing types avaliable lol. If someone wants their male avatar to have long ass twintails and a skirt, let em

 

They already have the main obvious physcal features of girls.
Make them 'more like girls' is just silly, stereotypical and sexist. That should be left up to the player.

 

this post is basically spot on.

yeah, i must be pretty bad with words if somehow my post made everyone launch into this- the point of my original post was really just supposed to explain that my opinion since girls are already easily recognizable in this game and not all girls are what culture would consider feminine, that what the OP says would probably make a fair amount of players feel a little disconnected from their characters.
i just dont see how some people see letting other people express themselves with their characters harmful. gender roles are silly. if some people dont follow them, who cares?

it's not natural? neither is pretty much anything that defines our modern civilization.
it's not common? neither are so many positive traits found in human beings.
it's pretty selfish to deny someone else something just because it makes you a little uncomfortable or you don't personally approve.

i really dont see why it's important to distinguish gender - especially in something like a videogame. i mean, everyone always says it's what's on the inside that counts, right?

saying you need to know someone's gender to judge someone is like saying you need to know someone's race to judge them.

also forgot to add: a common argument appears to be that the 'majority' of girls a very feminine. That does not mean that the minority does not exist at all.

 

Fair enough, that is a logical fallacy. You're right that I don't have a big enough sample size.
However, I think my evidence, combined with what other people are giving as evidence, should at least start to lend some credence to the hypothesis, even if it doesn't concretely prove anything.

I guess I can't really speak to that. As a male, I haven't experienced any of what you claim women go through, so I can't speak knowledgeably on the subject. It may be that I'm naive (which I freely admit is a possibility, I'm a bit of an idealist) but I haven't noticed anything of that nature going on in any school I've ever been to. If you're talking about the media, I haven't seen any active reinforcement of the idea that girls are bad at math there either. All I've seen is encouragement to pursue feminine ideals, things like being thin, looking attractive, etc. Whether the portrayal of women in the media is good or bad is a whole other discussion.

Thank, I'll do that. It sounds pretty interesting.

Also a fair point. I've read a lot of these points in other places, though it was some time ago. I don't have a ton of time due to homework and stuff so the link I gave was really a quick google search. Here's an article that gives some references that makes a lot of the same claims, however: http://www.narth.com/docs/york.html

 

...And of to the trash bin goes any research done by neuroscientists. I mean seriously. Look at the link I posted(in the previous comment), scroll down to the video. DO YOU SEE THE PRETTY DIFFERENT SHINY COLOURS? They actually represent different brain activity, can you imagine that?

It doesn't show social mumbo-jumbo based on liberal interpretation, if's and would have been's. It gives raw, undeniable facts. The only thing that's arguable here is the cause of these differences. Which might most likely be one of the three:
1. Brain changed through evolution. This is highly supported by the fact that the average brain size of males and females is different (though smaller brain doesn't mean less intelligent, some of the great scientists had relatively small brains, others had relatively large brains).
2. Brain changed because of lifestyle. Different brain sizes and slightly different structure goes somewhat against this idea(the differences are almost too significant to appear only because of lifestyle), but doesn't deny it completely, so it stays as a possibility.
3. The differences are either small or non-existent early on, but hormones cause them/add to them. This can come in addition to any of the previous ideas, though it's not likely that it causes these changes alone.

To each his own.

That was not it. I gave reasons on why something like that is a bad idea. Customization needs limits as well, and shouldn't touch certain topics, as they might be harmful to the game. Making adjustable sexual attributes, scenes of reproduction, touching hermaphrodite/homosexual/similar debated topics should be very well thought through before doing. My reaction was not "well, deal with it". There are some things everywhere that we just have to accept as they come. I might want racial attributes in the game, but they won't be there, thus I accept that as it is. Should I start complaining that the game doesn't give me enough choices? I believe not.

I don't believe I was rude anywhere. Unless denying/argumenting against something/using sarcasm or irony is considered rude. Otherwise it's just "bad taste" in your eyes. As you've already stated.

Still, it's a distinct difference as your own link shows.

I don't believe they are. I'm just stating the fact that women are better at "liberal arts", if that's what they're called in english? And men are better at sciences. It's a proven fact. It doesn't mean men are better than women or that women are better than men. It's just the same as stating that "in general, Muslim people are more devoted to their religion than Christians" or that "Black people have the capacity to be better runners than white people". Is stating those facts considered taboo? Bigotry? Should the scientists hide the data collected on these topics in fear they might be called racists, bigots or so on?
It's pretty much the same as stating that "not all people are equal". I'm sorry, but I can't say I see how my post was on the border of bigotry. Unless you actually do believe that everyone is equal? Perhaps I wasn't clear, but what I believe is that people should be given equal rights and equal footing to act, without considering anyone generally better than anyone else (some are better scientists, some are better sportsmen, some are better poets, but you can't say someone is generally just better than someone else).

Yeah well, there are some thing in games you just have to accept. Not everyone can be happy with everything, and this would be dis-satisfactory to the larger part of players(note other games, the attention threads like "boobs" "butts" and "sex" received and so forth if you need proof).

As I've already said, I would like racial stats in the game, but the number of people who dislike that idea is greater. Thus I accept that there will be none.[/quote]

 

I had predicted this would happen:

I'm however certain that Shifter is not worth anyone's time, at least not mine, so please don't feed the troll. I have reported his posts and I'd advise you do the same with the following reasons and proof. So just let the moderators take care of the situation as they see fit.

Forum & IRC Rules

Rule #1: Don’t be a jerk.

This is the most important rule, and we think it’s mostly common sense. Don’t forget that there’s a living, breathing human being behind every username. Treat them all with the utmost respect, whether or not you think that they deserve it. If you do this, you will leave the forums a better place from how you found it, and that’s good manners.

Given that we’re all human beings, disagreements and heated discussions come with the territory. Debating is fine, but keep it classy and don’t intentionally offend people-- don’t flame, troll, or make derogatory remarks regarding someone’s religion, race, sexuality, gender, etc. Don’t make things personal, and if someone else does, simply report them. We’ll handle it.


WHAT CONSTITUTES BEING A JERK?

1. Intentionally offending people! AKA trolling! AKA being way uncool, bro! Racism/sexism/any derogatory -isms, as well as homophobia, transphobia, etc. This includes offending their eardrums and eyeballs!
3. Showing a total inability to hold a conversation with someone without it devolving into a flame war.


Offensive things Shifter has said include but are not limited to:
"Oh God. Not this again"
"reasonable equality is good, but thoughtless equality ignoring the advantages of each gender is stupid"
"Thoughtless and radical equality is idiocity at it's finest"
"DO YOU SEE THE PRETTY DIFFERENT SHINY COLOURS? They actually represent different brain activity, can you imagine that?"



Sexists things Shifter has said include but are not limited to:
"That's what genders are for. To make some REASONABLE limitations on the character you choose."
"Men are better at math. Women are better at languages [...] there can be some exceptions, those are rare and not beneficial most of the time survival-wise"
"in order to draw a female, a man has to be more or less masculine [...] he has to be able to take care of the female"
"Women can be just as good as men in maths, but that's rare. The same way, it is much more likely that women will be better at social interactions."
"I'm just stating the fact that women are better at "liberal arts" [...] And men are better at sciences. It's a proven fact."



Transphobic and Homophobic things Shifter has said include but are not limited to:
"Do you know the percent of transgender people? An exception is one thing. Making that exception global, however, can have an entirely different result. I'll give you a different example:
Homosexuals exist in our society, causing some slight chaos and dissatisfaction for some perhaps, but not doing much harm otherwise. Now, imagine they were the majority. What do you think would happen then?"
"But making them genderless... That's just wrong."
"Some races might not have a gender [...] But some must have a gender. Humans are one of such races."
"Humans having no gender, however, does not make sense neither story-wise nor in any other way."

P.S. Sounds pretty bad when I put them all together.

 

You sound like a solid dude. Just sayin'. The ability to step back and review our own biases and flaws and, dare I say it, privileges, is what makes us able to become better people.

I'm not straight up arguing that there aren't physical differences between men and women, or in the way that we work, play, process information, etc. I'm more leading with the idea that these differences are smaller and less important than people make them out to be, and as such aren't usually relevant in a discussion of this sort save as a way to preserve other unhealthy biases.

Gosh, we've gone all serious and stuff here. That's okay, I'll make a more relevant point below.

§hifter. §hifter, §hifter, §hifter*. Okay, we'll do this then.

Not only are you unnecessarily rude and dismissive, you are wrong in your primary point. Games don't have genders to keep reasonable limitations on characters. Adding another choice at character creation takes more time and effort! It requires additional models and text and programming to get the option in in the first place! Games don't have genders to maintain reasonable limitations, they allow people to choose (when that option is available) so that people will empathize more with the character that they create.

I'ma let that one sink in for a second, because this next part is important.

Other people are different. I repeat. Other. People. Are. Different. Just because you get a shiny blue button that restricts your choices arbitrarily so that you can relate to your character as a male does not mean that there shouldn't be a shiny red button arbitrarily restricting options for people who want to identify their characters as female, nor that a shiny purple or green or orange button shouldn't exist that removes those arbitrary limitations for people who aren't so clear cut in their definitions or maybe want to identify as male but like some of the female hairstyles or want to identify as somewhere in between. When people say "Hey, it would be nice if I could play a character that I can identify with, that is maybe more like me or how I see myself" and you step in with "MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT IT'S NATURE!" You're not actually addressing their point. You're upholding stereotypes in order to keep people from being comfortable, from identifying from the characters that they want to play. You are suggesting that we make it harder for them to enjoy this game.

I can call that many things. To be polite, I am calling it rude, but that is the least of what it is.

The argument that we need to 'consider' adding in scenes where trans-people exist, or where people that are somewhere else on the gradient of gender other than the extremes of one or the other is horrible because it reinforces the idea that people that don't fall on those extremes need to be treated differently. That they are scary and different than you and I, and not worthy of being treated the same as we are. Perhaps the only thing we need to 'consider' is how to treat the people around us, all of them, as actual people. That would be good, I think. To hold the same respect and consideration for them as we do ourselves. Let's do that. It sounds like the more reasonable way to go about this. That means giving them the same options you or I or anyone else who does fall into that majority might have regarding being able to represent themselves or idealized characters that they can relate to.

Also, just because the majority says something doesn't mean the majority is correct. It seems that historically the majority is usually straight up wrong and requires a small minority to slowly effect change to bring them around. Don't go with the flow because it's comfortable and what other people are doing, go with the one that is right.

* Okay, fine, I copy-pasted the name. The effect is still the same, even if I'm cheating.

 

I don't think Shifter is trying to be a troll, honestly. I think he just expresses his opinion in a much more blunt and non P.C. way. I would hope that the community is mature enough that we don't need to resort to triple-checking our posts for political correctness.

As for addressing Shifter's actual points... Sheez, you're right about adding options to allow the player to identify with their character. But at some point you have to stop adding options. To take it to the extreme, a game could allow you to select the age, sex, sexuality, religion, beliefs on abortion, foot size, music genre preferences, and a preference for lasagna over spaghetti for your character. But is that stuff really important in a game about running around exploring the environment and building? Hell, in Skyrim for a example, I spent an hour creating a character, picking out the perfect chin size and nose length. Turns out I played a majority of the game in first person, and when I was in third person mode my character had a helmet on. I didn't even need it.

 

I'm not sure why you're all having a flame war on gender differences.

The initial suggestion was a light-hearted idea about the external appearance of the genders in Starbound, not about a debate of sexism in society or psychological stereotypes.

But then again, I don't even think myself this (The original suggestion) is needed:

On non-human races, the difference is more subtle; but doesn't mean the effect isn't unobtainable, such as removing the beard on this female Apex.

But hell, even in the lore, Apex are less physically and more mentally evolved after they branched off from human-like appearance. They look more like monkeys. Go out into a jungle and tell me if you can tell a male and female monkey apart on a glance.

 

Sure, there's a point where customization gets to stupid levels. I don't think adding a third option for gender is necessarily at the point of ridiculous.

The code for it is just about the same as the code for the other two, there's a little more gui design that needs doing to make sure all the elements still fit gracefully and possibly another toggle, but the end effect is that we include some folks who might otherwise have to make do with the options that are there (again), when we have the means and methods to bring them into a game where they can relate to a character like you or I do. Probably for the first time, for many of them. That's important, and I think the ways that people are going about saying this shouldn't happen are reprehensible.

It's a small change that can have a profound effect. Generally, it's not going to bother most people. It's not actually problematic to include it. The vehemence and arguments with which it's being opposed speaks more to the nasty biases and prejudices people have more than the actual difficulty of getting it in the game. And that's what I'm taking time to address. If people like Shifter are given a pass to spew hateful things without being shut down or opposed then we give the impression that these hateful things are okay and as a community we allow them to happen. That's pretty screwed up, and I don't think it's the sort of community we want to have. Moreover, I'm taking time to break down points into nice bite-sized chunks so they're easier to handle. I don't think the best option is to necessarily shame Shifter, even if the points they are making are awful, I want to educate them so they know better next time. I want to provide some perspective so they can step back, take a hard look at what they are saying and why they are saying it, and evaluate how they'd feel in a similar situation to maybe recognize some of the hurtful ideas they are supporting.

It's totally a derail (not like this topic hasn't derailed faster than the bullet train with missing track), but it's one that's being done with a good purpose in mind. Hopefully that makes it a little more acceptable.

 

I still don't see how that's rude. Is it my exasperation that strikes you as rude?

Seems like a valid point. I mentioned the limitations as a point because I can only imagine the uproar having genderless humans instead of being allowed to choose a gender might have.

It's not restricting hairstyles that bugs me most. What was proposed earlier was to eliminate genders completely. I already stated that I myself like to make men with caveman or LOTR style long hair. So it would be good if males have at least a few long hairstyles as well.

And yet there are some options that shouldn't be touched or implemented. You can't make everyone happy. Not everyone will find a race they're really comfortable with to choose. Not everyone might find a weapon or planet that fits them perfectly. This particular option you are suggesting would cause much more problems than it's worth. A few of them(the first ones that come to mind):
1.(slight problem) It might cause an uproar.
2.(large problem) A genderless character would still look like a male at it's base. Not unless you actually add that "bosom size" choice. Which is a pretty horrible idea. The only somewhat neutral way I could think of would be an additional "body type" choice for genderless people, but that would require too many armour variations, or the characters wouldn't look genderless anyway while wearing armour.

Well, you are showing prejudice against someone who think differently I see. Nonetheless, you missed the point why I mentioned natural differences.

The person I was arguing with didn't understand how gender roles came to be, and thought that it was nothing but a leftover "social construct" without any basis. I simply pointed out as a sidenote, that it wasn't exactly true, and males/females actually do have differences and are better adapted to their gender roles. Also, I explained why these gender roles remain in the modern society. It might look stereotypical, but that doesn't make it any less true. People who didn't study biology began arguing that fact, thus I had to prove it. It is besides the point, and was never my answer to the idea of trans-gender people. I never used it as an argument as much as I can recall?

Above.

Now you are being ridiculous. What you are talking about is adding every single mutation a human might have to the game because it shows tolerance? Trans-gender is simply a mutation of the 23'rd chromosome.

I agree that they are people just as good or as bad as anyone else. And if one of them is a really good and kind-hearted person, the society will love them for what they are, despite their differences. People aren't as intolerant or bad as you might think. There are a small minority who are, but the larger part of society sees the action. Napoleon, for example, was short. But the society didn't evaluate him for that. They saw the person, strong and fierce, for his deeds, not for how he was born.

But adding that to the game...
If you add trans-gender mutations, then not adding other kinds of mutations would be discrimination by your logic, right? And yet adding every kind of mutation to the game just to show support for those people is kind of pointless. It's a game. Not a tolerance campaign.

True. That's the same thing I would say. But in this case it's just a game, where the devs can never satisfy every minority. Thus they have to see to satisfy the largest proportion of people with their game. People who want trans-gender characters are a minority in this case.

Use alt+21

It's not hateful. I haven't said a single thing based on hate or anything of the sort. If I say being trans-gender is a mutation, you will call it heathen and want to burn me on a stake, without understanding that it's a simple biological fact that they actually are trans-gender because of a mutation with their 23'rd chromosome pair. I write this without any emotion. It's like saying that being born with a third arm is a mutation. Is that considered hateful?

The only place where I added some emotion were the places where I show exasperation. And that is only where people don't see something I consider painfully obvious or ignore something.
------------

I see that most of this discussion comes from the fact that the people arguing don't study biology and misunderstand some of my statements.

Oh, so pointing out flaws in an idea and disagreeing with someone is "being a jerk" huh? Am I supposed to sit silently when people make wrong decisions? I might be the one wrong, but in the event that it is they who don't see some point I see, I have to show them and let them decide what they think of it.

That was exasperation, if you've ever heard of such a thing. I don't consider exasperation offensive. Is it?

That's not sexist if those are facts. Is it taboo to mention facts if they are true and yet touch a topic that seems touchy to you? Those are BIOLOGICAL FACTS. From someone who STUDIES BIOLOGY.
They include anatomical differences, neurological differences, animal behaviour and so forth.

I can't see it once again. Biologically, if homosexuality became global with 90% of humanity being that or so, naturally, we would go pretty much extinct. Hint: Storks aren't the ones that bring babies :shock:

Yes, this one might seem what you said taken out of context. Making people genderless in a game might have negative consequences however, as I pointed out.

Again, only seems flaming taken out of context, where the reasons are given through a logical path.

Not unless humanity has suffered a global mutation of their 23'rd chromosome pair.

Only when taken out of context.

______

You see, I am mostly a person of facts, numbers and logic, with a touch of exasperation/sarcasm/irony. I leave emotions behind when talking about biological/physical/chemical/mathematical things.

Half of it you understand as sexist/intolerant and so forth just because you don't understand what I'm talking about or you understand it the wrong way.

 

Just a thing Shifter, neurology is INCREDIBLY HARD(I.E impossible) to separate from social constructionism.
You cannot quote any neurological research if you disregard social constructionism.

 

I feel like it's great that everyone is attempting a mature debate on their beliefs because that so rarely happens, but at the same time I also feel like this post is sort of being changed from "Lets make the Girl characters differentiate more than they currently do", to which personally I say the difference is well enough, but I do like the idea that we should add feminine and masculine poses, although I think anyone should be allowed to choose between them, and more "Lets get into a debate on sexism, cis and non cis genders, and equality in general."

Look, honestly, I'm for the whole, let girl characters have masculine poses and male characters have feminine poses thing posted near the beginning. Gender roles aside, I think the RP aspect of the game which some will frequent and enjoy thoroughly would benefit from some diversity in characters. It'd be nice to see a...lavender male or a tomboyish beat'em up female character, if only to add some interesting characters in a world where anything is possible.

 

An issue? Maybe but as other have said, the pixelised style makes it kinda difficult to add much details to characters.
Also once you get your hands on an awesome piece of armor it won't matter anyway.
See the aqua dude on the ending of ockpiis last SB video.
How can you tell if it's a male or a female in that thing?

 

I looked at this thread and I'm not sure if I'm surprised to see that this discussion has erupted.
I think some people should take a step back and reconsider what this is about;
This is about whether the female variations of pixelated characters in a video game should lose a couple of pixels.
I think that there should be some sort of androgynous inbetween to select because regardless of social roles or differences in brain activity there are people who would feel more comfortable with a character who is genderless. I also think you should be able to pick any hair style you want no matter which gender you decide to pick because let's face it, who honestly cares; It does not change the game at all.
Gender roles are completely inert in this game. No matter which gender you pick, you will be able to play however you want. When you die, you get cloned. Protecting the women isn't exactly super important.
I'm surprised this continued after it was pointed out that armor has slight differences when on a male or a female, because that seemed like a solution for the OP. I doubt the female versions will be steroetypical "less practicality, more shapely/scanty" alterations of male armor because the dev team doesn't seem to be made up of people who would support that.

 

That depends on the situation. Social construction at it's base is animal behaviour of a specific species (humans). I was talking about anatomical differences and activity centres of the brain, which appeared due to social construction of humans back when they were cavemen. So in this case, the cause of the anatomical difference is the social construction of our species ages ago, and yet in time, with evolution, this social construction has changed. Nonetheless, the anatomical differences of the brain remain. I believe that in this case the separation is pretty clear. That's why I quoted the part about different brain sizes for males and females, since that is evidence that those differences today are of anatomical nature rather than "point of view" or "it is so because we think it is" nature.

Unfortunately, some people seem to want to burn me on the stake for that, understanding my biological explanations as discrimination/blind stereotpyes/etc. of... Men? Women? I don't know.

I apologise for going slightly (well, perhaps a bit more than slightly) off-topic.

In general, I am not against the idea of customization options available for both males and females (as long as it stays reasonable). I'm just against the idea of making everyone genderless(defined only by customization options)/adding hermaphrodite option(for races like humans at least. It is not because I believe such people are beneath others, nothing of the sort. Simply, it's a biological mutation for being like humans and I don't believe it has a place in a game).

 

I'm sure I feel as pretentious as you when I say this, Shifter: I am an avid student of History and have a firm education in Biology, Genetics, Anatomy, Physics, Chemistry (Organic, Bio and otherwise) and Medicine. While some things you say are somewhat true, I have to disagree with you on a whole. The Human species is incredibly diverse. As a scientist I would have expected you to avoid such sweeping generalizations in a well put together argument. I assume you are speaking most about Caucasians, most people tend to have a Caucasian-centric view on these things. However, those from European, Arabic and surrounding areas (Caucasians) do have differences from races from other regions. Since you want to keep your barriers up, maybe we should have specific traits for the Asians, Africans, Africans from the diaspora and others? Oh wait, we don't need that because this is sci-fi and creating extra barriers seems pointless. How about we focus on diversity and allow more options without being bullheaded about every minor difference in the human condition?

Yes, there are differences between male and female. There are obvious differences that I do not think need mentioning, as well as others. Yes, there are slight differences in the brain operation of male and female humans but those differences are almost completely negligible in practice. The brain develops and grows according to use and every individual is genetically equipped with soft and hard barriers. I could go on for hours dismissing most of your scientific "facts" as pointless but that would be equally pointless. You know something about these kind of facts? They are used as excuses to start eugenics programs and create limiting social classes. They are minimal at best and make little to no difference in an individual's development through academic and social circles.

As for the suggestion of adding or taking a few pixels from the models... I don't think it is necessary. If they wouldn't have to create new armor models for every new body type, it would be great to have more options. It's always nice to have more options.

In addition, because someone needed to say it, Napoleon was not short. His height was average for the time period. Less amazing that he was not looked down upon by his own men now, eh? British propaganda was much more effective than they bargained for, it seems. You are a scientist, yes? Critical thinking, use it. Thank you for your time.