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Feedback Chucklefish should be more like YandereDev (Hear me out.)

Discussion in 'Starbound Discussion' started by CookieEpic, Jul 28, 2016.

  1. CookieEpic

    CookieEpic Pangalactic Porcupine

    Let me make myself clear before i continue. This is not a complaint. It's a suggestion.

    For those of you who don't know, there's this ambitious indie game called Yandere Simulator (title not final) that has gained some traction on the internet recently.

    The developer of the game (alias YandereDev) got inspiration for the game and asked 4chan (and 8chan) (a website he frequented) about what they'd suggest for that kind of game.

    After recieving a lot of cool ideas, he began development. As the popularity grew, the audience expanded to Reddit and Youtube (A lot of big youtubers covered it!).

    A bit like starbound there, as the audience grew, hype grew. and the game was promising looking (even if very unfinished.)

    Eventually YandereDev was being swarmed by the masses. He was willing to accept feedback, but only on his own terms, as it was his game, and yet he wanted to see what people wanted, as well as what other games had done in the past (Hitman was a huge inspiration, he even made a video comparing the two). When people began to get angry at him for slow development or the idea of funding the game with kickstarter donations, he laid down the line.

    The post he made on 8chan had some strong language, but it was deserved. He explained how he wouldn't be open with that particular section of his audience anymore because they did not respect that he was making a game specifically for them.

    The development process has been very open with the community. He has made it clear that the game will not be finished if the fans push him or spam him with emails that the game isn't done yet.

    He laid out the game's development process before them. He revealed that the game (as it was) was barely 5% done and required much more work, but he wanted to finish as much as he could without proper funding. Once he felt the game was "ready" for a presentation, he would launch a kickstarter and allow people to fund him (Once he had proven that he's a competent developer and can accomplish things, seeing recent kickstarter tragedies)



    warning: the game shown is quite NSFW. view at your discretion, but listen no matter who you are.

    Even in the beta builds, there is bright text at the bottom that explains the current build is for testing and debug only and will not represent the final product at all.

    important1.PNG

    He was realistic with the community in that development would take a while, accepted help (based on his high standards) and has a healthy work ethic for a single man developing an ambitious video game.

    important2.PNG


    In comparison to Chucklefish, who have done a great job so far, but have failed to handle the community in it's tantrums and instead gave in to their arrogance instead of making it clear that they are people who do this, not machines who magically create entertainment.

    Another difference is that he started out simple and grew ambitious as time went on


    important3.PNG


    While i've got you, how about reworking the EPP system so instead of wearing a backpack to survive a planet, it's a 3-slot module device that allows you to have various functions (light, heat, cooling, damage buff, health regen?). Remove the radiation module and replace it with a geiger counter (as well as radiation spots on planets to avoid) and consider making planet conditions more important than just gating content

    EDIT: Here's a response i want to bring to attention to make my point more clear.

    It's just reasoning how we ended up here.

    I'm annoyed you initially put off criticism as a "complaint". That's a bad mindset. Complaining is whining about the game not being done or finished.

    Criticism is when you assess what was done wrong and how it could have been improved. No criticism would be bad, because few things would ever really improve.


    I'm not talking about the games. This discussion isn't about Starbound or Yandere Simulator, it's more about Chucklefish and where they went wrong. I'm talking about how the developer(s) (and yes, they are similar. They're both game developers, only difference is that one is a team, and the other is a single guy who accepts [and receives] volunteer work.) handle their audience, the development, and their structure.

    Chucklefish is independent, like Yandere Dev. The real difference is that Chucklefish needed(?) pay upfront to even start real development, while YandereDev made sure he could actually accomplish some development (a minimal amount) before asking for money to continue it.

    Sure, Chucklefish is a team. They're not a very well organized team, by the looks of it, but they are one. With foresight, they should have realized that they can't promise something as big as Starbound unless they can organize themselves. I would feel more sympathy if they made sure they had the capacity to make such a giant game before tackling it. And yes, they are generally nice people. I doubt Starbound's slow development and mixed reception were result from a cynically underworking team, but rather an overambitious unorganized team that really wanted to do something, but didn't really have any focus.

    By "focus", i mean starting with the core mechanics and working your way from there. Like what YandereDev is doing; set the game's groundwork (playable game that may have bugs but is enjoyable, needs polish.) and then start hiring people to do the proper artwork, sound design, music, and animation once the game works (but needs to be souped up)

    "but that's really taxing on the developers!"
    If a single guy can do it without any funding or donations(!), an entire team should have no problem. If a team cannot achieve the efforts of one, then the team isn't very well coordinated. Many hands make light work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
  2. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Parsec Taste Tester

    Only problem is that CF has already gotten funding for the game. So issueing a threat of that nature may be a little... Dangerous...

    Don't get me wrong though, I like how YandereDev stood his ground. I think it really showed the entitled masses that he was doing that of his generosity, and they were exploiting that.
    I believe developers; single-man, small teams, and new studios alike, deserve more respect.
    I would like to see CF be a little more firm with their community. (My personal opinion though.) I've always found devs that are firm and concise deliver greatly.

    Purely my opinion, however. Please don't take me as fact or a lecture. :)
     
    kazunenazumu and CookieEpic like this.
  3. CookieEpic

    CookieEpic Pangalactic Porcupine

    Well yes, but they should at least assert that the game needs to be developed before it's fun, and, well..

     
    Inf_Wolf14 likes this.
  4. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Parsec Taste Tester

    Oh yeah, I totally agree.
    I find it, frankly, annoying that the game is getting such criticism and it only just hit official release.
    I know that CF is going to own up to any mistakes they make. I know they are going to deliver a game just like I was presented years ago. :)

    In a great quote:
    "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is eternally bad."
     
  5. Hawklaser

    Hawklaser Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    First want to point out that the game has been in early access for several years now, on top of being funded by a kickstarter campaign. As well as there is an implication that by buying into the Early Access of a game, feedback and criticism will help shape the game. Its not to say a game doesn't take time to develop, but the two biggest things I have seen the most criticism on have been the overall dificulty and by association the end game, and the essentially last minute hot bar change.

    The difficulty and end game aspects is likely going to be a touchy balance for a good while as you don't want to lock the builders out of some content, but you also need content that will keep the interest of those that enjoy the action platforming side as well. And the complaints I have seen have been on both ends of it being too easy and too hard. Or it is tied to poor available choices for difficulty settings.

    Now on the last minute changes to the hotbar, they are getting a lot of criticism on that for good reason. First off, its a core element of the game, which realistically should have been locked down much sooner in the dev cycle. Second, with changing a very major and core element of the game, especially after very minor changes to it during the rest of the early access phase, there should have been time set aside to get community feedback and involvement on the change instead of releasing to the smallest portion of the community and then going full steam ahead towards full release and essentially brush off the large amount of feedback and criticism they were getting until after the release. Now that is a pretty bad idea, as not only does it leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth of some people that bought into the early access and continued to be essentially unpaid game testers, as well as now not making as good of an impression on some of its new players. And most of the criticism they got before they released it was in the interest of having the game make a good first impression to as wide of an audience as possible.[note: this is not to turn this into another thread about the hotbar, more than plenty of that in this dev blog: http://community.playstarbound.com/threads/16th-june-dog-friends.116336/ (close to 20 pages) and this poll: http://community.playstarbound.com/threads/poll-nightly-do-you-like-the-new-hotbar.116571/ (19 pages) and a couple other longer threads floating around.]

    And as someone wanting to get into art and animation, something I see mentioned all the time makes for a good quote but I can't find it as a specific quote at the moment. If the foundation of your work is flawed, no amount of polish and extra details will ever make the work good. This can be applied to games as well. If the very foundations such as controls being tight and fitting for the game and a clear and well explained GUI are not there, no matter how good the rest of the game may be it will never be seen as a good game.

    So think about it a little differently, if the game is getting so much criticism right off of release and it is not specifically related to bugs that were missed or balance issues, odds are something is flawed with the foundation. Actual content could possibly be included as well, but that is also more likely to fall into a subjective category, due to how ravenous players are with content anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
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  6. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Parsec Taste Tester

    Yes, that is a valid stance. But I believe that much of the criticism is biased to a degree.
    Feedback is highly essential to the
    game. That is not in dispute. But from the dark history in EA, Chucklefish has, admittedly, failed to live to deadlines and promises. And even recently, I've seen people who still link that incidence to the state of the game as it is. It is warranted to a degree; However, given how CF has listened to the community and stuck to this game, I feel they deserve greater credit.

    Back in Koala version, people saw all the amount of content that was visible. But in the back, that was piling feature after feature onto another to make Starbound interesting. To me, that's adding a superfluous amount of ingredients to a bowl, hoping to make a cake.
    When some saw the studio pulling much of that content, they were upset. I was genuinely happy. I think CF saw that what they were creating didnt have stability. It didnt have a long life.
    The time the devs spent rewriting their engine and rehauling the backdoor mechanics was a step toward a strong foundation.
    One cornerstone of Starbound was its high modifiable base game. In Koala, the _merge structure, given enough mods, would rise forth numerous errors and confliction. Now, with actual patches, the chances a modder can break the game for another mod a considerably smaller.

    The terror that CF is receiving is a combination of their deadling history and their past of pulling content. But what I don't think everyone sees is that they are making sure this game will survive into the decade. Maybe even longer.
    Terraria quite recently went through a core rewrite. That was a time of one full year before an update. Starbound went through that process sooner than later. And sadly, I think that because Starbound doesn't have a big enough name yet, that decision has scored them alot of criticism.

    Of course I sound like I'm making CF out as some saint. I'm very sure they've done many stupid things. Hell, those missed deadlines was purely their naivety at action. But I think there should be some more justice to their achievement rather than mistakes.

    Ive seen many threads of feedback derailed by biased opinions and aggressive posts that drown the original feedback in discussion. If those same threads could be given the same environment without the hostility that arises from differing ideals, I'd be ecstatic!
    But that is an effort that has to come from the game's supporters as well. If they become as hostile as those who attack the game, no one is free from blame.

    My intent in a majority of posts in this section of the forums is to try and be civil and subjective to everyone's views while also stating my own stance. So while I am saying that, you are very much right in many aspects. But I also think the established perspective of Chucklefish is very unforgiving given the pride they have taken in nuturing their game and taking care of their community. :)

    Thanks for reading this far if you're still with me. I hope in no way I may come off condescending or any other offensive viewpoint. (It's how I've always talked in real life, and I do try to stop myself. So sorry if I have, but I get pretty passionate in my postings. ^_^)
    (Also off-topic, but if you find that quote, post it for me. I always like hearing new philosophy. :))

    Free random smilies cuz i dont want to bring unnecessary tension:
    :lickitung: :lickitung::lickitung:
    :proper: :poptop: :kitten2: :kitten:
     
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  7. Hawklaser

    Hawklaser Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    I still believe there is a lot of potential to be had with the game, and that they can still pull it together, I would not have bought a couple of friends copies of the game if I thought otherwise. Right now the biggest problem they are facing is that since they did go full release, they have a much, much shorter time frame to hook people to keep playing, as people are a little more lenient with an EA game with their impressions than on that is officially released, and really only one chance to make a good first impression. And with the past history that you mentioned, and the recent history with what I can only call the Hot bar fiasco, things are not looking promising to some.

    If I was working on the game, first things would be working on would be dealing with the mess the hotbar changes stirred up(which I feel should have been dealt with prior to release), adding some challenging content for those that seek it, work on including the mods for difficulty into an actual option menu for easier difficulty customization, and a much clearer tutorial system as there are people that don't know half their hotbar even exists, or how to actually upgrade their crafting tables or M.M.(other than missed bugs anyways, some of those need priority fixing too).

    As now, more than ever, the clock is ticking.
     
  8. CookieEpic

    CookieEpic Pangalactic Porcupine

    They should have been more slow and careful.
     
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  9. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Parsec Taste Tester

    Yeah, theyre in high water. They have problems to fix. They have people who have bugs. But I see that as reassuring. Someone can very easily give up on the game. But you wouldn't report a problem unless you wanted it fixed. And you wouldn't fix a game you didn't believe in. :poke:
    Its true there are more problems than other games. But not all games have a proprietary game engine they wrote themselves either.
    Very true. I think they are paying for those mistakes now. But i also think they know this and are easily smart enough to learn from them.

    But hey, Starbound is still a promising game isnt it? You said so yourself. If you can have that thought, im sure many others do too.

    First impressions count, but as ive said in threads before, if theyve built a community this grand, it would be astonishing to see a significant decline.

    (The game is out of EA, and ive seen alot of new faces around the forums, so if anything, i think it is growing in spite of these obstacles :))



    (Off-topic Note: Havent checked up on YandereSim in a while, hows it coming along?)
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  10. CookieEpic

    CookieEpic Pangalactic Porcupine

    Yandere Simulator (Title not final) is looking very good.

    The development videos are really entertaining! Yandere Dev's channel has lots of fun progress videos (really, they're worth watching, if NSFW at times)

    Video is NSFW. Click on the title of the video to be whisked off to the land of youtube where you can subscribe to his channel

     
    Inf_Wolf14 likes this.
  11. evilnancyreagan

    evilnancyreagan Pangalactic Porcupine

    Yes, X should be more like Y because Z

    Ultimately, this is an old (and now very moot) c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶a̶i̶n̶t̶ suggestion. To assert that there should be more transparency simply because an entirely disparate entity working on a completely dissimilar project found some level of success doing so with wholly divergent audience and because it suits your personal interests is to be ambivalent of Chucklefish's obligations and responsibilities operating as a publisher and developer to the point of a certain aforementioned arrogance.

    I may simply be playing the Devil's advocate however, there is only the tiniest flimsy pretext of a suggestion attempting to excuse this threads presence here. Perhaps this topic should be moved here, Mods?
     
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  12. Inf_Wolf14

    Inf_Wolf14 Parsec Taste Tester

    Yes, at face value, it appears irrelevant but much of the conversation I've had here is taking the social image YandereDev established and comparing it to CFs current reputation in the community.
    I don't think the absolute point of the thread is to suggest "X be like Y because Z". That is how it comes off, but I'm not suggesting that literal of a result. Weve been discussing what we see as problems, what is good, and discussing that. :)

    Not much of our " walls 'o text" are really basic, blunt statement. In fact, im kind of happy weve been able to discuss this as such without much hostility. Maybe its similar to other discussions, but i don't think any discussions can become moot as long as theyre productive in how they operate. :)
     
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  13. evilnancyreagan

    evilnancyreagan Pangalactic Porcupine

    Fair enough! :D

    it is an apples to oranges comparison though--I did try to stress the adjective 'dissimilar' (and it's synonyms)

    to the point of breaking then, even ;)
     
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  14. CookieEpic

    CookieEpic Pangalactic Porcupine

    It's just reasoning how we ended up here.

    I'm annoyed you initially put off criticism as a "complaint". That's a bad mindset. Complaining is whining about the game not being done or finished.

    Criticism is when you assess what was done wrong and how it could have been improved. No criticism would be bad, because few things would ever really improve.


    I'm not talking about the games. This discussion isn't about Starbound or Yandere Simulator, it's more about Chucklefish and where they went wrong. I'm talking about how the developer(s) (and yes, they are similar. They're both game developers, only difference is that one is a team, and the other is a single guy who accepts [and receives] volunteer work.) handle their audience, the development, and their structure.

    Chucklefish is independent, like Yandere Dev. The real difference is that Chucklefish needed(?) pay upfront to even start real development, while YandereDev made sure he could actually accomplish some development (a minimal amount) before asking for money to continue it.

    Sure, Chucklefish is a team. They're not a very well organized team, by the looks of it, but they are one. With foresight, they should have realized that they can't promise something as big as Starbound unless they can organize themselves. I would feel more sympathy if they made sure they had the capacity to make such a giant game before tackling it. And yes, they are generally nice people. I doubt Starbound's slow development and mixed reception were result from a cynically underworking team, but rather an overambitious unorganized team that really wanted to do something, but didn't really have any focus.

    By "focus", i mean starting with the core mechanics and working your way from there. Like what YandereDev is doing; set the game's groundwork (playable game that may have bugs but is enjoyable, needs polish.) and then start hiring people to do the proper artwork, sound design, music, and animation once the game works (but needs to be souped up)

    "but that's really taxing on the developers!"
    If a single guy can do it, an entire team should have no problem. If a team cannot achieve the efforts of one, then the team isn't very good. Many hands make light work.

    Addendum: Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is criticize.
     
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  15. Hawklaser

    Hawklaser Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    I kind of share very similar thoughts about how the dev team went about things, and went over why in a bit of detail in a short review of the game(sans story) over here: http://community.playstarbound.com/threads/a-short-review-after-completing-the-story.120899/

    You can often see just how organized a team is from a games tutorial elements. Most just seem to tack it on at the end and haphazardly, and end up much like how the Starbound's is and miss important key elements such as not really even touching on the hotbar(both new and old), while other more focused and disciplined dev teams will end up with something like Portal's tutorial sections, which really don't even feel like a tutorial at all.
     
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  16. MelOzone

    MelOzone Big Damn Hero

    My thoughts exactly.
    Something like that, though to a much worse degree, happened with .dat while developing Disciples 3. They had some great ideas, some great modellers and great artists... but no priority lists, clever organisers, testers and deadlines. The result was an artfully impressive release version that was inherently broken even after postponing release date several times. Up to the degree when where whole abilities and parts of skill trees were not working. Even worse was the thing that the devs considered every criticism "complaining", up to the point of argueing with one game site that posted a negative review, calling them "biased" (I'm softening words here).
    While it's not nearly as terrible with Starbound, I feel like organisation, prioritizing and going from simple to complex is an issue for Chucklefish, too. Like you said, it's a matter of "focus".
     
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  17. evilnancyreagan

    evilnancyreagan Pangalactic Porcupine

    Again, you're comparing a team to a single person and two completely different projects--it's not at all analogous. The words your are using may not be a direct attack but, they provide no real, tangible solution for improvement outside some nebulous suggestion for them to try harder. It's more a back-handed insult and a smug and ineffectual one at that.

    You are simply operating under banker-logic; "Hey Chucklefish, this guy is doing video games just like you do video games but, with just one guy! You should be more like this guy!"--You can not take one success and apply it universally (or retroactively, in this case).

    With that kind of thinking, perhaps these guys would be more receptive to your suggestions.
     
  18. MelOzone

    MelOzone Big Damn Hero

    If that is the only thing you saw in the text I have some bad news for you.
    I saw three points there.
    1. Focus on core functionality first, decorative features second.
    2. Build a stronger connection with community. Communicate more directly, telling what you do not only in one-way blog posts and patch notes. Make feedback work. Make players feel feedback works.
    3. Remember that not every feature request is a must. In the end you are the dev. You and only you make the final decision what to include in your game. But try to inform the community about your decisions properly.

    PS. Just yesterday I was looking a Twitch broadcast from Radiant. I watched Allie Strom sketching new building templates while she was also looking and commenting the chat from time to time. There were also 2 more devs in the chat, in addition to some active sommunity members and volunteer mods from the forums. During this broadcast I managed to
    - Show some images to Allie for references and post some thoughts on this (and she read them!)
    - Answer some questions of my fellow players
    - Get an official answer from the devs that they are going to implement transparent materials and stained glass at some point (but not soon since it's hard and right now performance fixes are more important). They are also already working on fixing the problem with light sources I described. Yay.
    - Generally have a good time.

    I can't stress enough how important community work is. It's something Blizzard failed to do, that contributed to my disenchantment in their games. It's something my own government constantly fails to do.
    Sorry. Guess I started lamenting again.

    PPS. Dammit. Radiant posted they are experiencing focus issues!
    It's hard for me to avoid advertising and fangirl-ism (I hope mods don't think so), but it shows me once again how it should be done. They try to focus through "describe in one sentence what are we trying to build". The next Alpha is almost completely dedicated to performance improvements and removing bottlenecks/chokepoints all the while making a game more coherent.
    And while my vision for the game is not exactly their vision (I'm more interested in story, exploring and RPG elements), I understand and agree that such "core work" has to precede adding more features.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
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  19. evilnancyreagan

    evilnancyreagan Pangalactic Porcupine

    1. When you are a team, you have several people working on many things at once. You don't simply tell the art guy to sit on his hands until x, y or z function is implemented.
    2. "Listen to community feedback!"
    3. "Tell the community to piss off, it's your rodeo!"

    oy vey. :lod:

    Maybe under all this word salad there is some genuine sentiment but, I'm too tired to dig through it any more. Good luck.
     
  20. CookieEpic

    CookieEpic Pangalactic Porcupine

    There's a middle ground, you know. Let me try doing it without mentioning other developers.

    1. Play the game you're developing (I think chucklefish has this part). This gives you an educated viewpoint on how the game feels and responds, what works and what does not. However-

    2. Take ideas from the community, and then share those ideas and get a census. Ask why and how those ideas should work. However-

    3. Make sure the community understands that development is not easy, and be open about the development process and it's progress. Be realistic about how much time each feature will take. This will reduce whining, and make the fans trust you more.

    4. Delegate and set goals.

    "You bunch, work on pets. You three can work on sprucing up the cutscenes.. we should be done with the polish update in around six months. let's tell the community."

    The point of having a team is so you CAN delegate people to other parts of the project, which allows development to go by faster.
     
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