Procedural/Generative Music

Discussion in 'Other' started by Alvin Flummox, May 14, 2012.

  1. Alvin Flummox

    Alvin Flummox Existential Complex

    Firstly I just have to say that I love the music that we've heard so far and the composer has done a fantastic job. However the problem with sandbox games is that you tend to eventually spend a lot of time listening to the same piece of music repeat over and over. Any piece of music, no matter amazing the first time, starts to become tiresome eventually, and I quickly move on to turning the in-game music off and just playing my own. Overall this tends to ruin the experience though, and I'd much rather just have a greater variety of in game music to listen to.

    So, generative music is much like how other procedurally generated elements work, but with music. It allows a system to use predefined sounds and formulae to alter and 'randomise' the music slightly as it is playing. This therefore creates an 'infinite' piece of music that can change based on the world around you and how you play.

    This is perfect for sandbox games because it allows a piece of music to play for hours and yet not feel like it has just been repeating over and over and this video is a pretty good example of what it can achieve:


    It would take more work to get this system in place, but I think overall it would be worth it. It also wouldn't affect all the hard work that the composer has already put in as there would still be a time and a place for these pieces. Areas like the title screen and the starship, where you wouldn't be spending long periods of time at once would still benefit from these compositions. The composer would also still be required to make the sounds and create the general atmosphere for the pieces for the procedural system. Generative music could just be used for the surfaces of planets and other places that you're likely to spend prolonged periods of time in one go.

    The other option is to have multiple compositions for each area that are randomly selected over time. However I feel that this might still suffer from the problem of repetition eventually as well.

    This is just my two cents on the issue, so what are your views on music in the game?
     
  2. StarJoe

    StarJoe Void-Bound Voyager

    That's awesome! This is actually an amazing idea and there's so much stuff you can do with it. I love the idea of the music being dynamic - but you could keep a general 'theme' that you associate with the game. You could have the music changing depending on different variables; here are a few ideas:

    When you're at home:
    The more money you have the more 'royal' the music is. Different instruments place (violins)
    When you're asleep the tempo slows down and quiet / soft instruments play (harps / soft synths)

    When you're on the surface:
    If you're in combat the tempo speeds up
    The higher up you are (cliffs) the higher pitch the music, the further down you are the lower it gets

    When you're underground:
    It starts to echo as you move into open caves
    The audio is deeper and ominous

    When you're in water:
    The music becomes suppressed - similar to real life when your ears are submerged in water
    It's much slower and soothing

    I remember playing SSX for the Wii, the music would change depending on how well you were doing and what moves you'd pull off. It made you feel awesome when you were doing well.

    One of my mates is using Pure Data with VVVV so that you can control music with various inputs. In his example he's nature control the music by putting various senses on a plant so different variables control the music (how much sunlight it takes in, how much water is in the soil, how the weather affects it, etc).
     
  3. Alvin Flummox

    Alvin Flummox Existential Complex

    Yeah those are some awesome ideas, that's exactly what I mean! The music can be made to change along with anything you want really as long as you code it into the system. It would take a lot of work but it can give amazing results.

    I particularly like your underwater suggestion, that would sound amazing. A similar effect could probably be done with normal music as well which would also good without a system like this. Caves and combat could still have their own unique generative music themes, but it would allow nice smooth transitions between different areas as it wouldn't have to abruptly change like it does with pre-made pieces of music. A more echoey theme in caves would work well though, and the pitch could alter the deeper you went, like you suggested for climbing up mountains. The possibilities are endless!

    It could also be made to change based on the weather and the time of day which would make the music even more varied. I love the idea that you could shut your eyes and be able to tell vaguely what time of day it was, or what the weather was like, just by listening to the music.

    Pure Data looks like an amazing program. I have to say I don't know hardly anything about it but that sounds really interesting! Could be made to work well with games where growing is involved too.

    P.S I have to say I love the colour scheme of your text lol.
     
    xboy777, StarJoe and JundtDH like this.
  4. StarJoe

    StarJoe Void-Bound Voyager

    Haha thank you! This is seriously a great idea and something that I could see in the final game, I'm not too good with sound + programming but I've seen variations of it in other games so it must be possible!
     
  5. Alvin Flummox

    Alvin Flummox Existential Complex

    Yeah it's definitely possible, but whether it's practical for a small Indie game I don't know. I can dream anyway :D
     
  6. Sarzael

    Sarzael Oxygen Tank

    Yep. This must go in.

    Its one of the things that is really worth it being procedurally generated in the game.

    Uhm... Lets see what we can procedurally generate next...

    PROCEDURALLY GENERATED STORYLINES!
     
  7. Alvin Flummox

    Alvin Flummox Existential Complex

    Thanks for reading :) Yeah It'd be awesome if this was in game, hopefully it might be something they've thought about for the future, if not for Starbound.

    Procedurally generated procedural generation ;) It can randomly generated whole new systems while you play!
     
    xboy777 likes this.
  8. Sarzael

    Sarzael Oxygen Tank

    Actually there was already an game like that, dont remember name, on which there were 12 pure storylines, and it would mix, remove and edit them to procedural generate storylines.
     
    xboy777 likes this.
  9. Zaba35

    Zaba35 Phantasmal Quasar

    now this is pretty cool !!!!!!!!! :p
     
  10. xboy777

    xboy777 Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    I really love this idea! If it was always something like in the video you showed I might be a bit skeptical about it if that's playing nonstop when compared to music I'm familiar with. But I love the idea if different instruments and sounds are used depending on the planet. And I agree, I think there should still be familiar music for certain things like your space station and the title screen.

    If there was a button reserved for Liking only the best posts that could be liked, I would be pressing it on StarJoe's idea post right now! :up:
     
  11. Alvin Flummox

    Alvin Flummox Existential Complex

    Hehe yeah obviously there would still be different themes of music for different areas! So you wouldn't just have this playing for hours. And it could still have a more classical theme like we've seen in the videos so far. But the video was just to show what can be done with a system like this :) It would just open up huge opportunities for variation and create a much more vibrant and immersive atmosphere in my opinion.
     
    xboy777 likes this.
  12. xboy777

    xboy777 Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    I agree! Especially incorporated with the ideas in this thread! Pretty soon, EVERYTHING is going to be procedurally generated and I like the thought of that. A new game every time X3
     
  13. Alvin Flummox

    Alvin Flummox Existential Complex

    Next step: Procedurally generating games ;) A whole different game every time. FPS, RPG, who knows!
     
    xboy777 likes this.
  14. Joxalot

    Joxalot Subatomic Cosmonaut

    I got a program back in my compy that procedurally generates songs depending on the title!
    I'd love to see this but with a better synergy between beats.

    This post was procedurally generated.
     
    xboy777 likes this.
  15. xboy777

    xboy777 Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    sdfsdfn jyuofn #vs ahkgt$ ##@ 4sf56 4623 84r5f

    Sorry I need to work on my procedurally generated responses :rofl:
     
  16. Zaba35

    Zaba35 Phantasmal Quasar

    i like this idea alot i just feel like the music would eventually feel cookie cuttery
     
  17. goodgame

    goodgame Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Personally I think there is room for procedurally-generated anything in any open-ended game. But I'll say I like procedurally-generated music as an idea, an it has been pretty well implemented in past games, like Spore. Progressive rock on the other hand...yuck.
     
  18. goodgame

    goodgame Subatomic Cosmonaut


    I do feel Zaba's opinion that eventually it would lose it's coolness. Like hand-made themes deserve to be in the game too. I have to wonder what Terraria would be like with procedurally-generated music all the time. It might be a tad disorienting if you're use to associating a biome with a particularly loved theme.
     
  19. Eclipseknight

    Eclipseknight Big Damn Hero

    This idea is so amazing. I didn't even think procedural music was possible. I hope they add this to the game :love: .
     
  20. Alvin Flummox

    Alvin Flummox Existential Complex

    Yeah I said there's definitely a place for both :) This is just for the areas where you're likely to spend a lot larger chunks of time in one go, like the planet surfaces and things. The hand-made music would still have a place for the title menus and the ship and places, and even the procedural ones still require a lot of work by a composer. All the sounds have to be chosen, and the variations and things. It could just be used to add a little bit more variety than exactly the same thing looping over and over really.
     

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