Playing Nightly makes me worried

I disagree with the notion that starbound has ever been less about mining than Terraria, but agree about the minecraft part. Though I think it should be worth noting that minecraft is literally all about mining. Around the initial release of Terraria I remember mining for copper and then discovering underground caves and dynamite and beyond that point I don't really remember much in the way of required mining aside from needing, I think, a gold or nightmare pick for meteorite and that felt more like exploring(unless you count the actual mining of the meteor). I mean I'm not saying that it wasn't beneficial to mine, just that you could get a boomrang and several other weapons and trinkets through spelunking. Armor really was the biggest use, from an RPG perspective, for ores and even that concept is undermined by the fact you can find chests with bars in them. It is 100% possible to play terraria and beat it (kill all bosses) without making a single house.

If you look at Starbound's track history you are literally pigeonholed into mining. Everything that is part of progression requires ores and always has been. Terraria's bosses generally spawned based on met conditions. Having high HP, armor and X number of houses and npcs or smashing orbs or talking to that old guy. For starbound, historically speaking you've had to craft everything except some drops and you'd have to even craft the boss summon items.


But I digress, I am also disappointed in the direction of the game. I feel as though the game has a very linear progression that is only being made more linear. The idea behind progression in an open game should be to give options. It should be possible, though unlikely, to find a life support system without having to build it. It should be possible, but unlikely, to find a crashed ship and salvage it's engine instead of doing x thing or gathering x materials. There should be a main quest and then it should also be possible to get quests that help you to progress though are not necessarily required. Starbound has no options. You do things the way it tells you or you don't go anywhere at all. That is objectively bad.

 

As already mentioned by other people, this should likely be removed before the final version of the game. I also said; "for me personally", so you're not really telling me anything new here, i too think it would make the game more grindy and tedious and i personally don't like it.

 

Personally I find I can relax just as well with the help of wooden boxes and the pixel compressor if I wanted real security.(as in, going to a PvP or multiplayer romp.)

 

So much this ^

The new systems seem to straightening the line of progression, instead of opening it up. So much for "sandbox"

 

I would argue that minecraft actually isn't all about mining.

While it has some degree of loose progression, minecraft doesn't really require that you grind extensively to get ore -- one small trip underground (exploring a cave and grabbing whatever ore is visible, or even just searching exposed cliffs) can get you all the ores you're likely to need for the entire game. You need a bit of luck to find diamonds if you want to mine obsidian, but that is not strictly necessary and doesn't require grinding so much as exploration -- you don't need many diamonds, you just need to find them.

Most of the things you build in Minecraft do not actually require ores, and the things that do usually require something like three pieces of metal. Armor requires more but is strictly optional. Weapon upgrades are optional; you can kill anything with a stone or, at best, iron sword -- or with a bow, of course.

Starbound is, currently, very different; you need to constantly grind for more and more ore just to be able to survive on new planets, as well as to progress or to do, well, just about anything. Constant armor and weapon upgrades are absolutely essential to survive. In this respect it combines aspects of Terraria and Minecraft in an unpleasant fashion. (Although even Terraria doesn't require this level of ore-grinding; it is entirely possible to skip most ores and grab what you need from the jungle or corruption areas.) Additionally, both Minecraft and Starbound generally avoid requiring large amounts of ore at any particular time; the worst they ever require are pickaxes, which generally only need trace amounts.

Whereas Starbound currently "gates" you by requiring a large pile of specific resources at regular intervals or you can't progress at all, with no other way to obtain them and no alternative routes. This is planned to change, I think, but it's the situation at the moment.

Even if it changes, the underlying feel of Starbound is very much like an MMoRPG (a carefully scripted progression that feels like it was put in place by developers trying to ensure you go through it at the proper rate, with more concern for hard-enforcing balance and linear progression than with what's fun) as opposed to the more sandboxy feeling of both Minecraft and Terraria. I think that this is the main thing that has people unhappy when they say that the game is "grindy" -- beyond everything else, beyond all the details of implementation, it feels like the game has been designed with the idea of numerical MMoRPG-style progression as a core goal, and I suspect that a lot of players just aren't interested in that.

Finding Metroidvania-style upgrades that actually change how the game is played is fun. Repeatedly increasing the numbers on my armors, weapons, and picks so I can fight enemies with more damage and HP and mine blocks with a higher hardness value is not fun. If the game is going to borrow from Minecraft, I would prefer something like its lack of progression -- Minecraft's progression has, at best, three tiers, after all, and they are trivial to pass through in an hour or so. Terraria is a bit more grind-y in that respect, but you can still leap ahead in the progression if you want, and there's a point where equipment "flattens out", no longer increasing dramatically in stats, providing different options instead.

That sort of flattening-out is, I think, what Starbound needs. Increasing numbers is boring. You should be able to get numerically decent armor and weapons (capable of carrying you to the endgame. though perhaps with something of a challenge) within the first few hours of play; at that point the game should branch out into a wider sandbox where you could theoretically challenge almost anything, though you might have trouble against opponents intended for late-game due to your narrow options.

The fun part should be gaining genuinely new abilities, not in increasing your meaningless stats.

 

If the ore dropping, sluggish backwards movement of player's avatar, disappearance of ore when mining the sand or with "wrong" pickaxe and inability to repair pickaxes and drills will be pushed to stable release, I'm not gonna update the game. Ever. Right now Nightly feels like huge piece of crap and major disappointment.

As of "revamped" render engine, it actually loads faster but works much slower than the original implementation.

I think it's entirely possible to backport features from the Nightly builds into the latest stable release instead of sticking with these stinky versions.

P.S. I really hate Minecraft and seeing Chucklefish to mindlessly copy its mechanics makes me want to apply vaseline to ones responsible for this mess, if you know what I mean.

Advice to developers: if you got bored of perfectly balanced game and want to turn it into hardcore nightmare, quit it already and develop a new game instead. The community is mature enough to finish the quests and implement things you didn't.

 

I'll probably uninstall it and move on (or back to?) to Terraria if they don't fix the stuff in the next stable update to be honest. I play games to have fun, and the changes kill the fun for me. While there are improvements and additions, all the negatives to me, make the game not worth playing any further.. It counterbalances the fun factor and makes the game frustrating and annoying.

 

Totally cool with the nightly so far. I can't to see what the status effect system will bring to both mobs and my weaponry.

 

"Random events allowing you to skip ahead" are not what I would call options. Options are choices that you intentionally make, and while there may not be many now, the devs have clearly stated plans to give you options. For instance, mining for ores is one option. Going to a trading outpost and purchasing them is another, which has many sub-options as to how you earn the money. Going on quests to get rewards is another option. Options like that allow the player to say "I want to accomplish my goals by doing x", and then they are able to go out and do x. If your options are all about randomly finding the progression scattered about, then you can't decide "I wan't to find a life support system", and then go out and do it.

 

Devs stated plans for a lot of things. Things that were scrapped, or flat out mutilated beyond recognition. I take anything they say that is 'planned' rather than is actually done or being actually worked on right then and there with a great deal of skepticism at this point anymore. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Exploration should be an option in an exploration based game. Random or not, it is an option and one that we should be given. It should also not be necessary for a single piece of equipment to progress the game except for maybe in the very beginning. The progression tree has even shown that there are different parts to get to different locations. it should be entirely possible to find at least a crucial part of these other systems simply through exploration. Exploration just isn't rewarding at all in starbound currently and progression is extremely linear.

 

What systems have they 'scrapped' or 'mutilated', and what is your evidence that they've done so?

 

Exploration should be an option and it should be rewarded. "Skip this section of the progression" is not an appropriate reward. If I am trying to progress through exploration, it shouldn't bypass other dynamics of the game. Like, if the aspect of the game is "acquire better weapons", crafting a weapon, purchasing a weapon, and finding a weapon as loot should all be options, and the last one is tied to exploration. The key difference here is that the randomness is not really "will I find a weapon and be able to skip this aspect of the game", but "What weapons will I find?", which leads to choices of "which of these found weapons do I want to use?" . There is a huge difference between exploration based progression and random progression.

 

Skip what section of progress exactly?

 

If my next major goal is "get a space ship engine so I can go to the next phase", "I find a space ship engine laying about" is a really boring resolution to that.

 

Previously they'd mentioned that the different progression systems (Dungeon exploration, Farming, Land Lording, etc) would be primarily associated with pixels. Mining has always been a part of the big picture with crafting. I'm sure there will be ways to use pixels to get what you need (perhaps to even bypass large portions of mining). The problem with trying to judge the game right now is the fact that it's half complete. Give it time and I'm sure the linear progression will diversify.

 

The game would need to be linear in order for that to be a justified complaint which I guess in it's current iteration that's true. Still your reasoning is just like your opinion man. Also a reminder that I stated a part of it most likely a crucial part that is difficult to get that cuts down on the time required to get it. Anyway I disagree as I do not wish to just do quests and farm. That's not my idea of fun and I am stating that it should be an option to get lucky. Having the option there makes the game open and in doing so makes the experience better. It's not like everyone is going to get lucky.

 

It sounds like you're talking about the Dungeon Delving portion of their proposed progression. They'd mentioned wanting to add in incentive to clear dungeons by having recoverable artifacts that can be sold at the outpost. As far as I know it's still something they plan to do.

I think the opposition to the "stumbled upon" method for progression is that it seems to be completely without gating. It would be a little disparaging to some to find something like the oxygen system in the first chest on the first planet. It muddies the progression path a bit and really doesn't set people up for success in the next tier. It also encourages planet skimming which is something they've been actively working to end. Their plans for content gating might be a little harsh and rigid at the moment, but once the core path is in, they can expound upon it and add in the deep diversity that people crave.

 

It doesn't need to be linear, it just needs to have a progression. There are many aspects of your advancement in the game, there are many ways to improve those aspects. Exploration should be a way to improve those aspects, but it shouldn't be done with random leaps forward.

 

The problem here stems from the fact that the game has 'hard progression' in which you are required to have x thing in order to go to x place. There are no alternatives and thus each piece becomes imperative and by definition 'too important to be lying around'. With Terraria that only applies to hard mode and getting to the temple by killing plantera (eye of cthulu if you count the requirements for them to spawn and the dungeon if you count having to kill skeletron), but otherwise there aren't really that many restrictions. I guess you could call the corruption/crimson a restriction of movement, but barely since it's not a barrier to reach another biome or place and it can be bypassed in numerous ways.

Starbound has no such freedom. In order to go to a moon and live you need a life support system and in order to go through to x place you need x thing. Do you see what I'm getting at? Less emphasis should be placed on the locking of places by pieces and more on openness and variety. Perhaps players can hire someone to take them to a planet that they do not currently have access to or you can rent pieces of equipment. Regardless this gating system is 'linear' which is my entire complaint and effectively pigeonholes you into doing certain things which you may not entirely enjoy if at all.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with planet skimming. Discouraging it is the wrong way to go about it. Instead they should be working towards adding more color to the surfaces and generally more flavor or at least more incentive to go underground. Cities, hollow planets, giant connected and randomly generated spires, clouds so thick you can stand on them. The surface is boring in it's current form. There is no way to discourage planet skimming, only make it less interesting and as a result making visiting new planets even more dull.

Random leaps forward are enjoyable and exciting. Hallways are not. With that said it isn't 100% necessary to even grant someone a 'working life support system' and I think that no one seems to understand this concept so I will give an example.

Player 1 plays the games by the rules. He follows instructions to the tee. The game offers him a quest which will reward him with a life support system, the option to buy one outright and the ability to craft one from parts. He has some options to work with and that's quite nice.

Player 2 doesn't care what the game says to do, he just wants to have fun. Fun for them is exploring. Player 2 happens upon an old life support system, but it's missing some parts. He's given the option of scrapping it for parts, taking on a quest to get it repaired or repairing it himself with some parts, but overall it will take less time and resources than for player 1. In this aspect player 2 has been rewarded for exploration with a shorter line than player 1, but it only happened by chance and won't happen to everyone. Not only this, but even if another player happens upon it later when they've already gotten one, they also get the option of scrapping it and it is still useful for an exploration based player without upsetting some awkward balance which everyone is obsessed with.