Crappy unrepairable pick durability =/= fun

We were talking about diamond tip'ed drills. The size may not be
available irl, but its hardly a technological advancement to make it bigger.

As i said, personal opinions.

They said the same about blackholes existing, but oh my, they did.

They said the same about going to the moon, but oh my, we did.

They said the same about a human traveling faster then 60mph (claimed that the skin would be ripped off the bones and stuff. It was around when trains were introduced), but oh my, not true.

They said the same about earth being round, but oh my, it is.

They said the same about time being relative instead of constant, but oh my, its relative.

Shall i continue? Say that its unlikely if you must, but you should hardly consider it impossible.

I never claimed that they were, i said that they are experimenting on lasers that bend space and theorised that it might be useable as a sort of matter manipulator but i also admitted not too know how it realy works.

(NASA is trying to use it for a sort of faster then light drive by cheating, basicly instead of traveling faster the light they bend space around them creating the same end result. But the key word is "experimenting" it may not work).

To quote a famous science fiction writer "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

They may have added complexity, but i fail to see how they added any depth.

How so? Are you saying that opinions other then your own isent worth considering? Or that it isent a issue becuse it goes both ways? Either way thats wrong.

How is it dumber? It may be less complex but its hardly dumber. It dosent remove any difficult or intellectual content (aka dumbing down).

 

There's a difference between a round earth, going 60 mph, traveling space, and matter manipulation at that level, sorry.

What you're talking about is about as likely as time travel.

Technology IS the difference between magic and reality.

You don't see how separate tools for separate tasks adds depth to a game?

Well then like I said previously, lets make all weapons and armor pure fluff and just add the current mechanics and stat adds to matter manipulator upgrades because I guess a variety of tiered weapons and armor doesn't add depth either according to your logic.

About the "opinions" thing, if there was actually a choice to use one or the other "personal preference" might not be an invalid argument.

I feel like you're just trying to wear me down with non arguments at this point btw.

Removing pick/drill viability from the game DOES remove some depth, about as much as the armor and weapons that I mentioned.

 

I actually like to point out that Depth means a bit more than what you are obviously thinking. That is one word that has a broad meaning as well a literal one. It is mainly the general one that is in reference here, as put in the above post, Depth = more than 1; whether it be layer, content, idea, or other things in relation.

So The MM actually reduces depth in what it use to be, as in quantity/variety.

The other thing I would also point out is dumbing down doesn't only mean intellectual or difficult, it also means making lesser of. In this case the person is correct in saying it does reduce a part of the game. Whether that is bad or good is subjective to the invdividual.

For me I don't mind the changes to the MM/picks. I just wouldn't want it to go too far, like in the extreme example @Tsal mentions. Variety is something in the game I much appreciate about it. The less variety there is the more likely everything will be the same. There definitely should be a point at with the stop adding variety to certain mechanics or parts of the game so they can flesh out the ones that will make the variety even more beneficial. Of course also there are certain parts of the game variety will also be expanding, if not at least appear that way. There is more than one way to make depth in a game, and intellectual or difficulty is only a small fraction of depth that is possible at this time.

That's what I think...

 

Why would a matter manipulator that functions like it does ingame be impossible? Nothing in todays physics (That i know of. Im no physicist) says that its impossible. Unlikely, sure, unfeasible, maybe , but hardly impossible. If they do use lasers in the ingame matter manipulator: We can allredy effect matter with lasers in some limited fashion, wouldent this just be evolving that to its outmost point?

Time traveling back in time may be impossible (at least in view of how we see the universe at this time), but time traveling forward is easy enof in theory. Just travel close to the speed of light for a year, when you get back teen years may have passed for your one (time being relative).

Having one tool for chopping wood and one tool for mining dosent add any depth at all, just complexity. Depth is not the same as complexity. Late game you didnt even need the wood axe since the drills cut tree's down faster.

Upgrading the matter manipulator is essentially the same as upgrading mining tools (from a bronze pickaxe to a silver pickaxe for example).

Its hardly a question of depth. The reason they dont give every option (tool/weapon/armor) to a single tool is rather a issue of aesthetics then depth.

Which brings us once again back to "personal opinions".

Even if you instead use that definition i would still have to ask. How so?

If anything we have more options for resource gathering now then before. Instead of just upgradeing speed we can upgrade size for example. We also have the option to use different temporary boosts, something that wasent there before.

I mean, they didnt trow the old models away, they are still used in resouce gathering, they just didnt make them the standard tool anymore.

 

@Garatgh Deloi Mainly on the variety part, as it is 1 device, like the one ring to do all. It may be a multi-purpose tool, but it does not add variety in choice as there is only 1 choice with the MM; since it does it all. It basically reducing the variety of choice, and adds the quantity of what an individual choice can do with 1 thing. I don't know if that is clear enough, as I am not that well at elaborating, but I do my best.

Beyond just looking at the mm itself, yes that at least kept the variety in to a lesser extent, as a perk tool. So it really just overall dumbed down the process; ie lessened the amount of things needed in order to do multiple things. I am unsure of the complex comment, as that is in a way subjectional I believe. Compacted is a better term to be used here. complex implies difficulty as you pointed out, which it was not. For some it was tedious, yes. Complex, no. At least not to the degree at which something could consider complex. It was easy to do before and is easy to do now. So complex really is not the case here. Tediousness is to an extent depending upon the individual.

While several terms are similar to each other and some others more broad in meaning, it stands to reason which is which and what will somewhat be just similar, otherwise why there be so many different terms with multiple meanings, but have a clear or defined meaning. Sometimes meanings can be lost in translation over time the more it is used, but that just adds to the meaning or another definition thereof.

Anyway to each individual each is different in how they interpret such meaning. Mine is simple based upon strength degree; % more or less of each other. Might sound like a round about way in complexity, but really isn't. It is simple relation of words and such to each other in degrees.

So as mentioned the MM may seem it adds depth, but really it slightly minus' some depth for a less tedious primary, while the secondary is still there if chosen to be used. It only has depth in use not what you use. What you use is the depth I am implying that has been reduced.

I apologize for the long read of almost repeating myself several times, it is a habit and way I tend to write....

 

No its really not personal opinion which is exactly why you're ignoring what I'm saying about lets replace all weapons and armor with matter manipulator upgrades while were at it.

You understand what I'm saying but will just never concede to it.

 

The Matter Manipulator upgrades are the way to go. And the pickaxes are geared toward having to repair/making new ones. And they're more meant to maek you conserve resources and think: Better pickaxe now, or wait until it's repairable?

 

@Garatgh Deloi @Tsal :
Debates are fine, but please remember to keep it respectful. There's no need for things to get heated here; let's keep it civil.

Just a friendly reminder.

 

I hope pickaxes get polished in future updates.
So far, they are obsolete, once you got the MM properly upgraded.

But i'm sure, they'll get the place, they deserve in later builds as an optional way to mine away with goods 'n bads.

Aside from tweaks towards durability and price (they should require more bars to make), for example, certain blocks should be a little bit easier/faster to mine with with a pickaxe (as opposed to the MM around the same tier), but
not to a point, where having no pickaxe would become an annoyance.

 

Yes, yes they were. Here is a sample:

Once i saw how the mm upgrade system worked via a gif from the devs, I was sold on the idea as well.

 

I have to agree that in my space themed futuristic game, falling back on pickaxes instead of using my cool sci-fi matter manipulator was something that always bothered me, and I love that more focus is put on the MM in this version.

 

NASA also isn't working on Iron armor, swords, machine guns, erchius-based fuel systems, floating bubble tech, or Wind-Waker-Esque boats. They also didn't send astronauts to the moon with stone pickaxes, nor did they require the astronauts to construct them once they got there.

I guess what I'm asking is "why is anything that NASA may-or-may-not be doing relevant in any way to Starbound, a game where, need I remind you, you can literally play as robot whose culture is programmed to emulate a superficial understand of medieval feudalism?"

 

Hey, a lightsaber and phaser upgrade to the MM is something I've suggested already. Especially since every race other than the novakids can't craft guns themselves.

But I see you made those suggestions with sarcasm and hyperbole in mind, which is the worst way to make an argument. Also it seems that most here don't hold your opinion, but that is no reason to go on a tangent and deviate from your own thread's topic.

Please either provide more arguments to the case you are making (pickaxes/drills good, MM boring) or I'll have to ask someone to lock this...

 

Awhile pickaxes and drills breaking faster and such did kinda irk me at first, I've personally come to love the matter manipulator. It's definitely more fitting imo considering the setting, and with it fully upgraded digging is a cinch for me!

edit: Additionally, if I ever have trouble with any harder materials, I can always get a pickaxe or drill then, and save the rest of it for if I ever come across said materials again.

 

As someone who is heavily into building in this game, I cannot abandon pickaxes in favor of the Matter Manipulator fast enough.

 

I'm totally okay with the MM replacing pickaxes. It doesn't take more than a few minutes of mining to get the copper necessary to upgrade the MM to be roughly on par with early-game picks.

But that does make pickaxes totally useless, and they either need to be given a purpose, or be removed from the game entirely.

 

I'll give my two cents since I'm already here:
Mining was always a chore for me, regardless of the tool. But since I have too, now, the Matter Manipulator made things much easier, even in the earlier game.

One word: highlighting.

I mentioned this earlier in the dev blogs, but the Matter Manipulator's unparalled abililty to iluminate pretty much anything you point it's beam at, even through walls, gave me the limited but oh so useful ability to see where the resources lies. No more digging around entirely blind hoping to get lucky or carrying around tons of torches hoping to see any ore I might have missed. And upgrading it's radius only improves this unlikely ability. So you can add "short-range scanner" to the list of functions this little tool now have.

And I'll be buggered if the Matter Manipulator reverses to it's older, useless self after learning this.

 

Well for me it still has a purpose of digging. Not totally useless for me, as it helps with building underwater. The MM prioritizes liquid sucking over digging. So in that instance, at least for those that build and want to build in and around water, the picks would serve a purpose; even if minor. So removing picks out would make building in and around water a more tedious task than is already.

 

For me, the MM prioritizes digging. If there's even a single block to be dug before it sucks up the liquids, it'll dig.

 

Pickaxes aren't beneficial early-game. They just break way too fast and are a pain to make early on. By mid-game, you'd have already gotten most of the upgrades, meaning your manipulator would be more than enough to dig through snow, dirt and cobble. Endgame would be where pickaxes would be useful, to break through tough volcanic rock, but by then is obselete as the drill does it's job much better. Sure, the pickaxe requires less materials, but that's not exactly a problem endgame, where you could just fly anywhere and harvest a quick bunch of ore.

The point is, is that yes, they can be useful, but they aren't due to the fact that their disabilities make them useless early-game, and also because there are drills that dig better endgame.