Some thoughts on early access, release dates, the big 1.0

Discussion in 'Dev Blog' started by Tiy, Jul 21, 2014.

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  1. Tiy

    Tiy Lead Developer Chucklefish

    Tiy submitted a new blog post:

    Some thoughts on early access, release dates, the big 1.0

    Continue reading the Original Blog Post
     
  2. Well said ^^

    It's a shame that so many have a warped and twisted view of where the game should be and what it should contain.
     
  3. skydart

    skydart Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    That is true and many other developers would have done exactly that. Maybe you would have gotten less criticism if you had done the same - but it's pointless to think more about it now.

    Thanks for making things clear, hopefully that will bring some peace to the whole process!
     
    AngelusNox, Serenity and yclatious like this.
  4. Akado

    Akado Oxygen Tank

    Thanks for this! It's nice to hear it from your, uh, digital avatarized mouth. Early Access is not a well-defined thing, and while I would have liked to see Starbound finished, polished, and released already, I like that you're still improving it and you want the "grand opening" to be absolutely amazing, not simply "good enough."
     
    Uzkniso likes this.
  5. Skolar

    Skolar Void-Bound Voyager

    Pretty accurate about what 1.0 means to me. Just waiting for it to get in that state before delving in. Glad that you posted this explanation, hopefully people understand
     
  6. kithsakhai

    kithsakhai Big Damn Hero

    as someone with hundreds of hours of gameplay, and seeing how well supported modding is (which this game has made me want to learn to mod and use Lua, yay), i have to say starbound and space engineers are the two BEST early access games out there right now, and will be for a long time.

    keep on it, the nosebleed-nightly is awesome to go in and see what breaks., while the current stable release is rampant with mods (which is imho one of the best features of this game; easy modding) keeping the experience fresh and fun.

    im stoked to see what you guys come up with for the other race's up-gradable ships :p
     
  7. Ortales

    Ortales Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Hey, since you got to paste your post here, I feel like I have to do it with my post too!:

    So I wanted to clear some things up. Before we released anything on steam we were offering people that had bought the game before any kind of release no questions asked refunds. That's because there was nothing to play yet and we had more control over actually refunding people. The screenshotted post Molly made was in that context.

    I choose to trust you for 8 months, and you still haven't delivered what you stated when I bought the pre-order. I should have the same right to a preorder than they had, or even more. When you launched beta you posted saying "avoid this stage if you want to enjoy the full product", clearly stating it wasn't a finished product.


    Since the game has been released and contains hours and hours of content (our average buyer has an estimated 26 hours, many people have over 500. This average is actually much much higher than 90% of the games on steam) and given that it's down to the store (steam/humble) to OK refunds at this point, we've been telling people refunds aren't something we're personally able to do. The game is unfinished, but it's only really unfinished in the sense that we want to do more with it and we have more planned and it's going to become a better game. It contains as much if not more content than many finished games already.


    I'm sorry to tell you but the launcher had a bug that counted hours. Add the fact that most people had their progress deleted several times. Even with that, what you have right now is not what you promised. I understand people being happy with the current state of the game and even buying the early access because they like what they see and are going to enjoy it (and I encourage it as long as they know what they are buying it). But the thing is, I didn't bought that. I bought game in 2013, that even after being changed to game in 2014 later on that deadline isn't going to be meet either. You can't just give me something different to what I bought and say "it still fun". About humble, I contacted them before contacting Chucklefish support, and the answer I received was: "Unfortunately, as [X] stated before, a refund cannot be offered for this purchase. Seeing as it was made over a year ago, those funds are in the hands of the developer. I am unable to provide you with a refund for this game." That's why I went to you for a refund.


    As for the final release date, it has been pushed back a number of times, but that's purely to allow us to improve the game beyond what we wanted it to be from the outset. We run a nightly build update system and every day updates go live. We also update our homepage with our work on a daily basis. I'm sorry that we didn't meet our initial estimates, we could have done but the game would have been worse off for it and we decided delays on the basis of delivering a much better game to everyone was the best thing to do.


    I know delays are a common thing, and I understand why they can happen. But that's not the only thing why I'm asking a refund, it's only the one that gives me the right to it. I know you put effort on showing progress and you might be working to your limit, but still, the release date is too far (from 2013 to supposedly 2015 is a great stretch), and sorry I have to say this, but you don't seem to have a clear direction on where the game is heading (it stills only my opinion).


    I think the context that's missing here is that unlike many early access games, the game is already fully playable, and although it doesn't have everything we want to put in it yet (which is what's holding it back from a 1.0 release) I feel we could have released what we currently have AS 1.0, outside of early access, we just wouldn't have been happy with it.


    You couldn't release it as a 1.0. I mean, you could, but it wouldn't be the 1.0 you promised. You showed tons of things the game would have (like something like a pokedex, aircrafts, more detailed monsters...) and a lot of mockups (obviously made in a drawing program, not on engine) as well as like you say, things you get too excited about and comment, but you can't just act like that and then run away from the responsability...

    We're all still trying to figure out just what early access is, at what stage games should go in and out of early access and what the expectations are. I think as Starbound stands, our sharing of our future plans aside, it could leave early access and be an entirely reasonable stand alone game. I think the huge number of hours people have poured into it is a testament to that.


    Aside from the launcher bug, resetting progress and things like that, I agree that in comparison to most early games Starbound has a lot of content. But still, I didn't bought Starbound on Early Access, and the fact that you have more done than other different games (which I don't think they have the kind of budget you have anyway) doesn't negates the fact that you don't have what you promised. You can't just call yourself good only because you are better than most of your competitors. It is hard for me to put this on english, what I mean is that what is in debate here is not the quality of Starbound, but the fact that its quality is not the one you sold to me. I agree with you when you say you shouldn't refund people who bought it on Early Access, because they knew they were buying a beta and in the state it was, nothing else.

    We're often criticised for not updating the game enough, especially as we said that we'd be putting out updates thick and fast. Along side that, we also warned that these updates would be buggy and broken because of the speed at which we were pushing them. We started updating the main game in this way but people quickly lost patience with small updates / constantly updating / buggy updates and we took the time to move those updates to a new opt-in branch in steam. So the nightly updates are the thick and fast, buggy and broken updates we promised. They appear every single day. And the game on the main branch exists as a perfectly playable stand alone whilst we continue to work.

    I don't criticise your update rate, I criticise the fact that you can't update to the game I bought when you promised me. I understand you have a great game in mind, with lots of things going on, but the fact is, that chucklefish has prooved that they can't make a good estimate of their progress (as you say in your post too). If you can't live up to your word, if you can't honor your part of the agreement, I'm sorry, but you have a responsability.

    I feel 1.0 is an arbitrary release number and it's down to us to decide what 1.0 means in the context of our game. If anything, the estimates for 1.0 exist for the people that want to wait and play the game when it's in a state that we are entirely happy with it.


    It might be an arbitrary release number to you, but it shouldn't. You bought the promise of a full game in 2013/2014, you earned 4.000.000 million dollars with that pre-order, which I think it is a lot of money, specially for an indie studio with no games under its belt. When you handle that kind of figure, you should have more than just arbitrary numbers.

    We've chosen to keep upping the ante for 1.0, but that absolutely doesn't mean that what's available and playable right now is any less a game, any less enjoyable or any less worth £9.


    First of all, enjoyability is relative, not everyone enjoy the same things. Second of all, as I said before, I'm not getting what I bought and that's it. No running around it, that's what happens. I'm sorry but that's the truth. You could have developed the best game in the universe that I would still have the right to a refund (althought I might be less interested in the refund, since I would be enjoying it)

    And to conclude, I would like to tell an anectode about my relationship with Starbound. I remember the day Chucklefish announced the name of the game and opened their web. I instantly logged in the IRC where the devs where answering the questions people were making about the game. I remeber somebody even drawed a fish sword for somebody who asked it. I even remember asking if the game was going to have the one slope thing where you don't have to jump everytime you faced a 1 block high wall (like you had to do in Terraria in that time). I remember it was you personally who answered my question and you were very excited about speaking about it. I loved Starbound. I bought a 4-pack because I called my friends in. So please, take this as a proof of how things can change and don't call me just a bitter person. I loved Starbound, but I'm sorry to say, I don't trust your ability to develope it anymore. I feel you have too much on your plate.

     
    Klokinator, Josheru, NFossil and 64 others like this.
  8. Hara Rara

    Hara Rara Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Surely this post won't be severely misinterpreted into the ground /s.

    In seriousness, I appreciate y'all's openness about the addressed issues.
     
    Jedi65 and Jbeetle like this.
  9. kithsakhai

    kithsakhai Big Damn Hero

    having too much on their plate isnt necessarily a BAD thing, just look at how horrible a game battlefield and call of duty has become because developers are incentivised to make repeat crappy content re-using old materials and not wanting to do anything risky.
     
    legodude2, jcklsldr, Ashgan and 4 others like this.
  10. Rink

    Rink Void-Bound Voyager

    Are you implying that you're going to stop work on the game? :confused:
     
  11. Garrakx

    Garrakx Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    That's exactly what I was thinking about Starbound, I bought a pre-order because I wanted the game you said it was going to be, so is not true that the game is finished now. So just focus in developing the game, hire experienced people if necessary because you created too much hyped and couldn't handle it correctly.
     
    Lantis, TheRoachMan, PSS and 4 others like this.
  12. Tiy

    Tiy Lead Developer Chucklefish

    Absolutely not
     
  13. Um... reading comprehension would indicate otherwise. They're saying that "finished" and "complete" are subjective.
     
  14. Spike

    Spike Supernova

    Well, this is what happens when people asks for an early release, and expected perfection. Even though Tiy says that the game is "version 1.0", I'm sure there will be more features added, if people can be patient enough. Still, at this point, I still prefer terraria over starbound, but hopefully this will change in the distant future.
     
  15. hocotRT

    hocotRT Aquatic Astronaut

    That's great and all, but I have one question regarding this bit:
    How were you able to determine that the launcher didn't contribute to those hours?
     
    Leak, TheKassuriBard, Asti and 5 others like this.
  16. Kittani

    Kittani Void-Bound Voyager

    Only reason I'm not playing the game right now is because I'm waiting for the big progression update. I had already gotten to a point where the game was effectively "done" for me when I had every Tech and a suit of every armor, and tons of other junk piling up in chests I'd never actually use. I'm looking forward to the main branch update that will make the game more challenging (and thus more rewarding to play) Once that is in place then I'll happily wait for content updates that include more lore on the races or critters to play with.

    All I really want to see for updates is what you folks have been doing and maybe projections on how far along individual planned features are and when the features will be expected to be released tot he main stable branch.

    I could care less when and iff a "1.0" finished game ever comes out. Everything we've gotten since public release has been icing on the cake so far.

    Edit: oh, and Tiy, don't get dragged into pissing contests with naysayers. And don't feel rushed. It'll get done when it gets done.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
    NFossil, Lantis, Tchud1 and 19 others like this.
  17. Karramellie

    Karramellie Void-Bound Voyager

    I'm honestly not really that offended, Keep up the great work guys!

    always take your time
     
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  18. LowestFormOfWit

    LowestFormOfWit Pangalactic Porcupine

    No clue how that would be determined. I know for a fact I only have 23 hours done of actual gameplay (mostly playtesting, implementing and fixing Tabula Rasa), yet I'm clocked in for 94 hours, which can only be the launcher. I made it a point to not play Starbound for myself until it was more feature-complete.

    I do hope we get there.
     
    SuperMandrew likes this.
  19. Esahc_

    Esahc_ Cosmic Narwhal

    I wrote a long post then realized I could just quote you and it would instantly get my point across. I agree one-hundred percent here. This topic reminds me of times when a game was on a shelf there was no going back. As soon as the game was pushed out no more changes could be made by developers. Now devs can shove out updates and additional content which is for the better, or maybe it isn't better.

    I'm not sure why people are criticising you for not pushing updates out fast enough. I think the only time a game update should be rushed is if it is a hotfix for something that breaks the game. Rushing updates helps no one. It's better to take time developing updates as to avoid large issues. I think if your updates were large and fast you'd get more complaints.
     
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  20. fidgetwidget

    fidgetwidget Subatomic Cosmonaut

    @Tiy I understand where you are coming from and feel your frustration with how a community asking for conflicting things can be difficult to resolve.
    That said, there is still merit to the negativity some of the community has expressed. I know you aren't able to vet a refund for the person on reddit, but I really don't feel this post answers their, and others like them, frustrations.

    You come across as defensive instead of understanding. Frustrated by the users, rather than thankful for them.
    I know you can't go back and re-craft your response, but some humility and owning up to some of the complaints/issues charged against you would have been nice to see.

    Some people are upset... and this doesn't seem to acknowledge that. :(
     
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